Holyrood '16 polls and predictions

[Baxter Parp]

No you're backtracking because you realise how daft your assertion was.

f**k off, chum, "will have saved money" doesn't in any way mean "will have recouped all the money given to Scottish Councils as a result of the Council Tax Freeze".

There's nothing 'simple' about the issue and there's no absolute rights and wrongs. My view is that the SNP government should not have frozen Council Taxes as it is one of they few progressive tax raising powers they have and one where they can mitigate against the effects on the least well off.

The Council Tax may be a progressive tax but raising it will hurt the poor far more than the rich.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-council-tax-rises-hit-britain-s-poor-hardest-9627235.html

[John Lambies Doos]

The SNP will obviously win massively, they need to have a laugh about this. What can they do and still win?

They should make it a proper challenge. Say, Pete Wishart has to phone up 100 people randomly and call them arseholes. Make one of their party political broadcasts consist of John Swinney eating a live octopus, ala Oldboy. Maybe Nicola Sturgeon could shoot a puppy with a captive bolt pistol before FMQs.

They would still get over 50% of vote!! Lol

[Todders]

There is nothing progressive about the council tax. It does not take into account ability to pay.

[strichener]

There is nothing progressive about the council tax. It does not take into account ability to pay.

No taxation takes into account ability to pay, only gross income. The very fact that tax credits exists is a stark reminder of this.

[Baxter Parp]

No taxation takes into account ability to pay, only gross income. The very fact that tax credits exists is a stark reminder of this.

Income indicates the ability to pay income tax.

[strichener]

Income indicates the ability to pay income tax.

No it doesn't. It indicates how much you earn without any regard to your obligations. For as long as the government treats itself as a preferred creditor through PAYE then you're incorrect.

If you are self-employed, projected earnings are used to calculate your tax liability. Once again this does not take into account ability to pay.

[ScotSquid]

No it doesn't. It indicates how much you earn without any regard to your obligations. For as long as the government treats itself as a preferred creditor through PAYE then you're incorrect.

If you are self-employed, projected earnings are used to calculate your tax liability. Once again this does not take into account ability to pay.

What are you calling obligations here? What obligations would indicate a lower amount of tax should be paid by someone earning say £50 k than is currently taken?

Our Income Tax system is be definition progressive.

[Granny Danger]

There is nothing progressive about the council tax. It does not take into account ability to pay.

It depends upon how you define 'progressive'. Are you taxing wealth or income?

By and large folk with larger more expensive houses by definition have greater wealth than those that don't.

There will never be a local or national tax system which is perfect but if we want to create a more equal and just society we need to tax folk with greater wealth and higher incomes.

[ScotSquid]

Any local tax should focus on income and not property value.

Or perhaps a combination would be good. Part of the charge based on housing band and part on your income.

[strichener]

Any local tax should focus on income and not property value.

Or perhaps a combination would be good. Part of the charge based on housing band and part on your income.

Why should it? If we have local income tax then who will set it and it what way would it then be local? Unless you know an easy way to collect income tax other than via wages then this is going to be extremely costly to implement at a local level.

[ScotSquid]

Why should it? If we have local income tax then who will set it and it what way would it then be local? Unless you know an easy way to collect income tax other than via wages then this is going to be extremely costly to implement at a local level.

Because assessing income is the fairest way of taxation.

You can try and ascribe having an expensive property to having a high income but its much better to ascribe having a high income to having a high income.

Apologies - I haven't read all the thread but what is your suggested form of local taxation?

[strichener]

What are you calling obligations here? What obligations would indicate a lower amount of tax should be paid by someone earning say £50 k than is currently taken?

Our Income Tax system is be definition progressive.

No it isn't when you include NI. NI is general taxation in the exact same manner as Income Tax.

[ScotSquid]

NI and Income Tax are two completely different things.

[strichener]

Because assessing income is the fairest way of taxation.

You can try and ascribe having an expensive property to having a high income but its much better to ascribe having a high income to having a high income.

Apologies - I haven't read all the thread but what is your suggested form of local taxation?

I don't think there is anything wrong with the council tax as the basis for local taxation. Add additional bands at the top and you have a progressive tax. Ideally I would like a land tax but it doesn't look like this is on the horizon.

I perhaps see housing differently from others in that for me it is somewhere to live, not accumulate value. If you are in a house that is too large for your needs (and possibly your income) then you should downsize. The housing issue in this country could be helped considerably if people were living in suitably sized houses and not keeping the one that they have lived in for 30 years that was adequate in size when the four kids stayed in the house.

[strichener]

NI and Income Tax are two completely different things.

Yes, just keep believing that. I will let you explain how this is the case.

ETA: from the IFS Briefing Note BN09

National Insurance contributions act like a tax on earnings, but their payment entitles individuals to certain (‘contributory’) social security benefits.18 In practice, however, contributions paid and benefits received bear little relation to each other for any individual contributor, and the link has weakened over time. Some contributions (19.7% of the total in 2014–15) are allocated to the National Health Service; the remainder are paid into the National Insurance Fund. The NI Fund is notionally used to finance contributory benefits; but in years when the Fund was not sufficient to finance benefits, it was topped up from general taxation revenues, and in years when contributions substantially exceed outlays (as they have every year since the mid-1990s), the Fund builds up a surplus, largely invested in gilts: the government is simply lending itself money. These exercises in shifting money from one arm of government to another maintain a notionally separate Fund, but merely serve to illustrate that NI contributions and NI expenditure proceed on essentially independent paths. The government could equally well declare that a quarter of NICs revenue goes towards financing defence spending, and no one would notice the difference.

[ScottR96]

If you are self-employed, projected earnings are used to calculate your tax liability. Once again this does not take into account ability to pay.

By the time you need to make your first payment, you're already half way through the tax year and can reduce your projected earnings to take into account your ability to pay if you know they are incorrect. You can also submit your tax return in April instead of the January with finalised earnings so it's not really projected as such.

[ScotSquid]

And what obligations were you talking about? What should be offsetable (I'm sure that's not a word) against the payment of tax against your income?

[ScotSquid]

Yes, just keep believing that. I will let you explain how this is the case.

Its really not that difficult. You should be able to grasp it.

National insurance and Income Tax are two separate taxes on income.

Income Tax is progressive. NI is regressive.

[strichener]

By the time you need to make your first payment, you're already half way through the tax year and can reduce your projected earnings to take into account your ability to pay if you know they are incorrect. You can also submit your tax return in April instead of the January with finalised earnings so it's not really projected as such.

This isn't correct, you can reduce your projected earnings if you can show that they are incorrect but not on your abilitiy to pay.

[strichener]

And what obligations were you talking about? What should be offsetable (I'm sure that's not a word) against the payment of tax against your income?

I haven't siad that anything should be able to be offset against tax. My point is that only looking at income does not equate to ability to pay unless the government continue to treat themselves as preferred creditors. It isn't a difficult concept.