wirez Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Folk like jmo want their shite sandwich wrapped up in a red paper rather than blue. No thought process is involved. It somehow just makes it more palatable for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 No I wasn't. I'm no Tory, I just want Labour to pitch themselves towards the centre-ground as that's where the votes are. Much of what the Tories are doing fills me with dismay hence why I think it's so important to get a Labour government. Which Tory areas of Tory policy fill you with dismay that you think Labour could have gone to the right on to win votes? You seem to be suggesting there's a sweet spot to the left of Cameron and the right of Miliband which could lead to a Labour win and wouldn't leave you with a sense of dismay. I honestly don't really see it that way. It'd be interested to know if you think that's a fair comment and what you'd move Labour to the right on and how far? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Which Tory areas of Tory policy fill you with dismay that you think Labour could have gone to the right on to win votes? You seem to be suggesting there's a sweet spot to the left of Cameron and the right of Miliband which could lead to a Labour win and wouldn't leave you with a sense of dismay. I honestly don't really see it that way. It'd be interested to know if you think that's a fair comment and what you'd move Labour to the right on and how far? The attacks on the unions, the scrapping of grants for students, EU referendum, scrapping of EMA, cutting inheritance tax, fox hunting, their ideological attacks on the BBC and the changes they are making to the NHS. There are some Tory policies I agree with, like the increase in the tax free allowance, equal marriage and Gove's education policy, but the things I feel strongest about are the things I disagree with the Conservatives with. There are things I disagree with but tactically understand the appeal of Labour supporting, the change in child tax credits for example. Similarly there are things I disagree with Labour on (immigration prior to the election being one, Labour coming out with their anti-immigration stuff made my skin crawl). I'm moderately left of centre and socially liberal (pro-immigration, pro-all women's short lists, in favour of positive discrimination etc) and believe the Labour Party, at its best, is too. I fundamentally disagree with the Tories on multiple issues which are important to me, in a way I simply don't with Labour. Whether this will get Labour into power I'm not sure of, however I think it gives Labour a better chance. Ultimately Miliband was unelectable as much for his policy as his personality. On a personal level I am to the right of Miliband and to the left of Cameron but given the choice I would have Miliband as our Prime Minister over Cameron without a shadow of hesitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 The attacks on the unions, the scrapping of grants for students, EU referendum, scrapping of EMA, cutting inheritance tax, fox hunting, their ideological attacks on the BBC and the changes they are making to the NHS. I suppose what I'm looking for are areas where the Tories are seen as 'too right', Labour are seen as 'too left' and Labour could win more support by moving to the right? Because presumably if Labour are seen as 'too left' to win elections then there must be some fundamental areas where they need to move to the right to hit the 'sweet spot' and 'out centre-ground' the Tories. I appreciate that's a bit simplistic and people's views of how left and right a party is are made up of a number of factors but there must be some? Can labour move to the right on any of these issues? A lot of them are binary issues which Labour can't really manoeuvre on except by just taking the Tory position. I think a big part of Labour's current 'left/centre' problem is that there's been a strong prevailing opinion in the UK (but particularly in England i think) that anything left of centre is inherently stupid or too idealistic or wouldn't work and can't win elections. Labour have played up to this by undertaking mass self-flagellation any time they come anywhere near anything left of centre. Labour are in a position where they seemingly can't touch anything too left because half their own party will start talking about what a disastrous move it is, even if that brings the party closer to their own personal ideology and the only alternative is to be a kind of Tory-lite. Which would work at the ballot box when people are fed up of the Tories or Labour are seen as more competent managers of the country and the economy. but the latter certainly isn't true right now. And as someone already mentioned, when faced with Tory-lite or the full fat variety, the electorate are more likely to choose the real thing. You can't just take the position of 'well we're less worse than that lot'. There's lot labour can do to be a credible left of centre alternative. Taking measure to push up wages and increasing the tax threshold for one. It draws on elements from the left and right and, is the best way to help working people and incentivise work (cutting benefits is not), it is popular but the Tories are paying lip service to the the wages part to keep big business happy. I don't even know labour's position on this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl. Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I see from wings that 7 Labour MPs opposed Tory renewable taxes. So i guess we can add the environment to the rather long list of things that the Red Tories agree fully with the Blue Tories on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Is anyone watching this bbc labour leadership debate? The Tories must be laughing watching this - they're driving labour's debate, making them look even less different from them. Prospects won't improve with this lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Is anyone watching this bbc labour leadership debate? The Tories must be laughing watching this - they're driving labour's debate, making them look even less different from them. Prospects won't improve with this lot. Liz Kendall must be a plant. How can one person disagree with so much of what three other people in her party are saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honest Saints Fan Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Liz Kendall is a horrible woman. The way she sneers at Corbyn, a member of the same party is doing my head in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanburn Dave Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Liz Kendall the worst of a bad bunch. Not a single credible leader on show. Tories will run riot over whoever wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happysouth Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Liz Kendall really was terrible. She talked all over the others and her open disdain for corbyn (and to a degree the others) was pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Andy Burnham is the bookies favourite. I can't imagine him ever as a prime minister. I don't think he comes across as particularly sincere or credible. I think cracks are starting to show with Corbyn now. He's been fighting the tide during this whole campaign and he's getting noticeably more short tempered. Cooper is too closely associated with Miliband via Balls and Kendall is a Tory. I can't believe that's the best labour have to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Burnham is about as inspiring as "Red Ed", maybe even less so The only credible choices are Kendall if they want to go down the Blairite new Labour type route or Corbyn for a true socialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I suppose what I'm looking for are areas where the Tories are seen as 'too right', Labour are seen as 'too left' and Labour could win more support by moving to the right? Because presumably if Labour are seen as 'too left' to win elections then there must be some fundamental areas where they need to move to the right to hit the 'sweet spot' and 'out centre-ground' the Tories. I appreciate that's a bit simplistic and people's views of how left and right a party is are made up of a number of factors but there must be some? Can labour move to the right on any of these issues? A lot of them are binary issues which Labour can't really manoeuvre on except by just taking the Tory position. I think a big part of Labour's current 'left/centre' problem is that there's been a strong prevailing opinion in the UK (but particularly in England i think) that anything left of centre is inherently stupid or too idealistic or wouldn't work and can't win elections. Labour have played up to this by undertaking mass self-flagellation any time they come anywhere near anything left of centre. Labour are in a position where they seemingly can't touch anything too left because half their own party will start talking about what a disastrous move it is, even if that brings the party closer to their own personal ideology and the only alternative is to be a kind of Tory-lite. Which would work at the ballot box when people are fed up of the Tories or Labour are seen as more competent managers of the country and the economy. but the latter certainly isn't true right now. And as someone already mentioned, when faced with Tory-lite or the full fat variety, the electorate are more likely to choose the real thing. You can't just take the position of 'well we're less worse than that lot'. There's lot labour can do to be a credible left of centre alternative. Taking measure to push up wages and increasing the tax threshold for one. It draws on elements from the left and right and, is the best way to help working people and incentivise work (cutting benefits is not), it is popular but the Tories are paying lip service to the the wages part to keep big business happy. I don't even know labour's position on this stuff. The SNP seemed to have managed (so far) the balance between right of centre economics (which many do support) and left of centre social policies.Many voters will support leftist policies so long as they are not having to pay (too much) for them. Labour are still suffering from a poor economic record under Brown/Blair and much further back under /Healey/Callaghan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Is anyone watching this bbc labour leadership debate? The Tories must be laughing watching this - they're driving labour's debate, making them look even less different from them. Prospects won't improve with this lot. I really wanted one of them to tell Neil that he was talking shite - but none of them really challenged the line of his questioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 The SNP seemed to have managed (so far) the balance between right of centre economics (which many do support) and left of centre social policies. Many voters will support leftist policies so long as they are not having to pay (too much) for them. Labour are still suffering from a poor economic record under Brown/Blair and much further back under /Healey/Callaghan. I know a lot has been made about how left/right the SNP are economically. I think their success, or lack of criticism from the electorate at large is mainly down to the reduced control they have over the economy compared to Westminster. People get that most of the big economics decisions are made at WM. Also, no matter how many people try to argue that free prescriptions, free tuition and council tax freezes are 'actually right wing', people just don't see them that way. I'd also agree that it doesn't really make sense to me to take the view that 'I'm left/right wing so i'm going to do and support everything which is stereotypically left/right of centre'. I don't see why you can't have a government which promotes a fair society, protects people against the more damaging, nastier elements of unbridled capitalism, and looks to reduce inequality without hammering anyone who's better off than average. There's no doubt Labour are still suffering from the tail end of the Blair/Brown era. But I think most folk would admit, they look like a party that have no idea what to do about that other than to squabble about whether they should be a little bit like the Tories but not quite or a little bit less like the Tories but not quite until folk get sick of the Tories and Labour get back in by default. It must be a depressing time to be a member of the Labour party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 No I wasn't. I'm no Tory, I just want Labour to pitch themselves towards the centre-ground as that's where the votes are. Much of what the Tories are doing fills me with dismay hence why I think it's so important to get a Labour government. So they can do it instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl. Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 So they can do it instead? Remember when you were a bit like that? Not a right wing Tory, but you were a leftie with a bit of a crush on BAE systems. I remember back in the day, your exasperation with Iain "Who" Gray made me laugh out loud. Changed times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elixir Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Burnham is about as inspiring as "Red Ed", maybe even less so The only credible choices are Kendall if they want to go down the Blairite new Labour type route or Corbyn for a true socialist. All of these diddies are mere cannon fodder anyway. They've no chance in 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Andy Burnham is the bookies favourite. I can't imagine him ever as a prime minister. I don't think he comes across as particularly sincere or credible. I think cracks are starting to show with Corbyn now. He's been fighting the tide during this whole campaign and he's getting noticeably more short tempered. Cooper is too closely associated with Miliband via Balls and Kendall is a Tory. I can't believe that's the best labour have to offer. David Milliband and Chucka Umuna are probably the best Labour have to offer.Can't help but think the winner of this election will end up being a 'steady the ship' leader and get axed in 2018. They need someone credible come 2020 because Prime Minister Osborne/May/Johnson doesn't bare thinking about. Cameron is likeable compared to those c***s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 David Milliband and Chucka Umuna are probably the best Labour have to offer. Can't help but think the winner of this election will end up being a 'steady the ship' leader and get axed in 2018. They need someone credible come 2020 because Prime Minister Osborne/May/Johnson doesn't bare thinking about. Cameron is likeable compared to those c***s. David Miliband is not in Parliament and earns £300k a year the International Rescue Centre in New York. He's not going to give that up for a backbencher's salary. If my memory is correct, the new Labour leader can't be ousted until after the next general election in 2020. He or she could resign before then if the polls are terrible. Dan Jarvis is one of the Labour MPs that the Tories really fear. My tip for the next Conservative leader is Sajid David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.