Uncle Psychosis Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Good to see that so many people who support independence are willing to question the SNP because I for one feel that their record in Government is nowhere near as progressive or left wing as they would like people to believe. Being further to the left than New Labour isn't exactly difficult. For starters, any party that happily deals with Brian Souter and Rupert Murdoch loses serious "progressive" points right there. However, you could probably argue that actually the people of Scotland don't really want a truly left wing or particularly progressive party. Even under Holyrood's PR system it's not like the SSP or the Greens have ever done all that well and on Thursday UKIP polled higher than the Greens did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 According to the Pink News, Scotland is the most progressive nation in Europe. http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/05/10/theres-more-good-news-for-nicola-sturgeon/ According to Labour Party talking head Ian Smart, the SNP are 'nazis and fascists'. According to some English businessman today, Sturgeon is an 'anti-English communist'. I'll go for the first opinion here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 The terms are as meaningful as ever. You have some right wing views and some left wing views - that has always been the case for many politically active people. Only if you want to try and pigeon hole. The terminology is flawed in that the parties set the position in this spectrum and usually in relation to the opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloop John B Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 They aren't that left wing but in the UK context they are like Syriza compared to UKIP and the Tories. I don't think that's a bad thing as despite what some people think on here, True left parties are unelectable, the SNP just need to make independence seen realistic rather than painting a socialist utopia that deters the middle classes from voting for it. With FFA, the SNP need to convince people that they can handle an economy, and ensure that the economy is capable of being independent so that they can win the argument next time. If that means being pragmatic then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Only if you want to try and pigeon hole. The terminology is flawed in that the parties set the position in this spectrum and usually in relation to the opposition. What do you replace it with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 Maybe to folk that are closer to drawing their pension than starting a family. I have what would traditionally be called right wing views on a range of subjects (private health care would be one). At the same time, as I have just been posting in the last day or so, left wing views in relation to employment. So am I left or right wing or maybe I am centre right or centre left. OR Maybe I am too unique to be classed in terms or left and right. Just like every new generation think they are the first to discover sex, so every new generation seem to think that they can define or redefine politics. The left/right distinction was relevant before I was born and will be equally as relevant when you are dead. To think otherwise is naive or arrogant. Good to see that so many people who support independence are willing to question the SNP because I for one feel that their record in Government is nowhere near as progressive or left wing as they would like people to believe. Being further to the left than New Labour isn't exactly difficult. For starters, any party that happily deals with Brian Souter and Rupert Murdoch loses serious "progressive" points right there. However, you could probably argue that actually the people of Scotland don't really want a truly left wing or particularly progressive party. Even under Holyrood's PR system it's not like the SSP or the Greens have ever done all that well and on Thursday UKIP polled higher than the Greens did. As much as I wanted an SNP victory and as delighted as I am with the result, I think the SNP got a pretty easy ride in this election despite the media bias. There are understandable reasons for this; we had a message that resonated, we had an absolutely brilliant messenger. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't self examine. Scottish Labour did that for years and look how fucked they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotbawmad Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I don't believe people in Scotland are as left-wing as they'd like to believe. They just hate the Tories, and you can't blame anyone up here. Regardless of where there political stance is. We shouldn't forget we were overwhelmingly Tory 50-60 years ago. At the same time we're not as right-wing as Labour. Who at times seem to be attempting to out Tory the Tories. We shouldn't be under any illusion that Milliband would have been any different from Cameron. He was a Blairite trying to pass himself off as some social justice warrior. Scotland, like the SNP hovers somewhere around the center ground. What I'm against is the neo-conservative stance the liblabcon pact take at Westminster. They are pro-military and globalist sycophants who think they are far bigger players on the world stage than they actually are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 "We shouldn't forget we were overwhelmingly Tory 50-60 years ago." Scotland was Unionist, not Tory, at that time. They merged with the Tories in the 60s and the decline set in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyAffro Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 According to the Pink News, Scotland is the most progressive nation in Europe. http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/05/10/theres-more-good-news-for-nicola-sturgeon/ According to Labour Party talking head Ian Smart, the SNP are 'nazis and fascists'. According to some English businessman today, Sturgeon is an 'anti-English communist'. I'll go for the first opinion here. That just makes me sad. Imagine what a fuckin great wee country we could have been with a yes vote. Maybe one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 What do we want ! FFA ! when do we want it ! .......not yet Mr Cameron we cannae afford it yet.If he forces FFA on Scotland right now the SNP will have some explaining to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Just like every new generation think they are the first to discover sex, so every new generation seem to think that they can define or redefine politics. The left/right distinction was relevant before I was born and will be equally as relevant when you are dead. To think otherwise is naive or arrogant. Just look at the title of the very thread that you have started, it invites opinion on where on the spectrum the SNP current sit. The reality is that the SNP policies are a mix of what are defined as right wing and left wing. Attempting to corall the full range of party policies into a single axis is just as likely to mis-inform as it is to inform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsdad Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 In all honesty they are about as centrist a party as you can hope for. They have the knack that Blair had of talking very 'left' but not really being very 'left' and that's no bad thing. For all the hard socialists and especially those on the web try to cast businesses in the role of the villains, working people to death whilst they live off the fat of the land, the vast majority of people are either employed by a business or run one. And not all businesses are big - a shop, a burger van, a mechanic and so on are all businesses and they need to feel comfortable that the government isn't out to get them. So on some social policies they have acted very well and very left - measures to combat the bedroom tax, the new stamp duty for example - whilst at the same time living within the means dictated by the coalition (now Tories). If the SNP wanted to raise tax and spending they could have - an extra 3p specifically for, say, the NHS. But they haven't. Spending on health and education in 1998 was 26.8% of Scottish spending; 25.6 for the rest of the UK. In 2014 in Scotland it was 28.7%; 30.6% for the rest of the UK. Backlog of maintenance in Scottish hospitals is estimated now at 1 billion pounds. Reading and writing skills have dropped in Scotland under the SNP; only 41% of S2 pupils in deprived areas perform well. Colleges - where many folk from poorer backgrounds go to better themselves - have had a 20% funding cut and 140,000 places dropped, whilst tuition fees for better off people were scrapped. Make your own mind up. Their record isn't very left wing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Just look at the title of the very thread that you have started, it invites opinion on where on the spectrum the SNP current sit. The reality is that the SNP policies are a mix of what are defined as right wing and left wing. Attempting to corall the full range of party policies into a single axis is just as likely to mis-inform as it is to inform. Indeed it does invite opinion. As someone whose politics is left of centre I feel, for the time being, I can support a party that doesn't reflect my views. A large part of that is because the ultimate goal of Independance is greater than the short term issues. Nonetheless there is something questionable about running a General Election campaign on what appears to be a left-of-centre manifesto whilst not backing this up with actions in the Parliament where you do have control. Some would go as far as to call it hypocritical. Unfortunately I don't think Independance is around the corner and, in the time it takes to achieve it, I hope a Scottish Parliament with enhanced powers will protect the most vulnerable in our society by not just talking about an anti-austerity policy but by enacting one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Psychosis Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 If the SNP wanted to raise tax and spending they could have - an extra 3p specifically for, say, the NHS. But they haven't. Spending on health and education in 1998 was 26.8% of Scottish spending; 25.6 for the rest of the UK. In 2014 in Scotland it was 28.7%; 30.6% for the rest of the UK. Backlog of maintenance in Scottish hospitals is estimated now at 1 billion pounds. Being something of a sad sack who likes being difficult I regularly like to point these facts out to SNP supporters, particularly when they've pulled out the "yes for NHS" line. There is just something really fun about watching them try to justify it. It really is remarkably easy to attack the SNP from the left, it will be interesting to see if Labour or the Greens can make a decent stab at it next year. I suspect, though, that for a little while instead of voting for monkeys with red rosettes it will be monkeys with yellow rosettes. Not a bad thing if independence is your main ideal but short term I can't say I approve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 I'd like to see our record in the Scottish government come under more scrutiny. For that to happen there has to be a far more effective opposition and if anything the main party in opposition is getting weaker and more ineffective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyAffro Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Being something of a sad sack who likes being difficult I regularly like to point these facts out to SNP supporters, particularly when they've pulled out the "yes for NHS" line. There is just something really fun about watching them try to justify it. It really is remarkably easy to attack the SNP from the left, it will be interesting to see if Labour or the Greens can make a decent stab at it next year. I suspect, though, that for a little while instead of voting for monkeys with red rosettes it will be monkeys with yellow rosettes. Not a bad thing if independence is your main ideal but short term I can't say I approve. Its an idiotic point only a moron would think is worth raising. Who on earth raises taxes while trying to win an election? Who creates an environment where higher rate payers can gravitate to England to save money or even just be paid there? Its a fucking moronic point, indpendence isn't about higher taxes its about different priorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 A few folk have mentioned it and I thought I'd bring it back up again:lower corporation tax doesn't automatically mean a party is not left wing. There are examples of countries that use a lower corporation tax but stringent tax on the shareholders or owners of those companies. It's a pretty good way to get companies to spread their profits rather than hoard them for themselves either through company share issues or reinvestment in the company, etc. A company director/owner would reinvest profit back into the company rather than give himself a huge bonus or salary knowing it'd make more financial sense in the long run rather than the current system we seem to have in place here where many companies look for profit upon profit, year after year, to keep shareholders happy with a lack of long term thinking (or the long term strategy is often pushed to the sidelines). I'm in favour of this sorta system myself: bring the companies to Scotland (or wherever) and the benefits from those companies being here would bring in more investment, income and opportunity than half as many companies paying twice as much tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzdrk Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 People really need to get past this left/right stuff. It doesn't serve a purpose IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete's Frontier Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 People really need to get past this left/right stuff. It doesn't serve a purpose IMO SNP are firmly on the left, not centre left, accept that and we can move on I agree, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptonite Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 A centre-left party who believe they're further left than they actually are. I'm an SNP member btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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