Mhairi Black appreciation thread

[Mr Billy Dawson]

The Treaty could be considered unpopular in Scotland: Sir George Lockhart of Carnwath, the only member of the Scottish negotiating team against union, noted that "The whole nation appears against the Union" and even Sir John Clerk of Penicuik, an ardent pro-unionist and Union negotiator, observed that the treaty was "contrary to the inclinations of at least three-fourths of the Kingdom". Public opinion against the Treaty as it passed through the Scottish Parliament was voiced through petitions from shires, burghs, presbyteries and parishes. The Convention of Royal Burghs also petitioned against the Union as proposed:

That it is our indispensable duty to signify to your grace that, as we are not against an honourable and safe union with England far less can we expect to have the condition of the people of Scotland, with relation to these great concerns, made better and improved without a Scots Parliament.^[24]

Not one petition in favour of an incorporating union was received by Parliament. On the day the treaty was signed, the carilloner in St Giles Cathedral, Edinburgh, rang the bells in the tune Why should I be so sad on my wedding day?^[25] Threats of widespread civil unrest resulted in Parliament imposing martial law

Hope this helps. I know it won't.

Because Wikipedia is 100% factual use some proper sources and then I'll maybe consider your argument

[Mr Billy Dawson]

Scotland was in financial disarray they needed England's support and they didn't complain when they got it and Glasgow became a thriving city the second of the empire which wouldn't have been possible without Union or would have at least been very slow moving

[renton]

Because Wikipedia is 100% factual use some proper sources and then I'll maybe consider your argument

You think he made up those quotes?

It's well known that the only people in favour of Union with England in 1707 were the folk sitting in parliament. Lesser well known, is the reasons why - the threatened English economic blockade, as set out by the Aliens act and the Navigations act in 1704 and 1706, which would have had serious repercussions for those same Scottish lords who signed away the Scottish parliament's sovereignty.

[renton]

Scotland was in financial disarray they needed England's support and they didn't complain when they got it and Glasgow became a thriving city the second of the empire which wouldn't have been possible without Union or would have at least been very slow moving

Nope, Scotland had largely recovered from the Darien fiasco, but England, desperate to ensure the protestant succession of the crown and to make sure the French could get no toe hold on the islands went as far as threatening economic warfare via the Aliens act that would definitely have impoverished the nation.

[Mr Billy Dawson]

You think he made up those quotes?

It's well known that the only people in favour of Union with England in 1707 were the folk sitting in parliament. Lesser well known, is the reasons why - the threatened English economic blockade, as set out by the Aliens act and the Navigations act in 1704 and 1706, which would have had serious repercussions for those same Scottish lords who signed away the Scottish parliament's sovereignty.

If Scotland was so against the union why wasn't there a revolt? Obviously didn't bother people that much did it? Why now do people want independence 300 years later only to enter into another Union with the shambles that is the European Union

[Mr Billy Dawson]

At the end of the day Scotland wants Union anyway with a majority voting to keep the union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

You think he made up those quotes?

It's well known that the only people in favour of Union with England in 1707 were the folk sitting in parliament. Lesser well known, is the reasons why - the threatened English economic blockade, as set out by the Aliens act and the Navigations act in 1704 and 1706, which would have had serious repercussions for those same Scottish lords who signed away the Scottish parliament's sovereignty.

The Darien Scheme failure played a major part though in enticing those Lords - estimates vary between 25% to 50% of money circulating in Scotland was lost in the scheme.

Article 15 of the Act gave £398,085 10s sterling to Scotland, an amount called The Equivalent, to offset future liability towards the English national debt. In effect it was used as a way of compensating investors in the Darien Scheme, as 58.6% was allocated to the Company of Scotland's shareholders and creditors.

[renton]

If Scotland was so against the union why wasn't there a revolt? Obviously didn't bother people that much did it? Why now do people want independence 300 years later only to enter into another Union with the shambles that is the European Union

Well, martial law was imposed to prevent civil unrest. Then the first Jacobite Rebellion 8 years later, then the second in '45.

[Mr Billy Dawson]

Well, martial law was imposed to prevent civil unrest. Then the first Jacobite Rebellion 8 years later, then the second in '45.

Scotland finally gets to vote for its independence in 2014 and voted against it the majority of people in Scotland are pro Union

[renton]

The Darien Scheme failure played a major part though in enticing those Lords - estimates vary between 25% to 50% of money circulating in Scotland was lost in the scheme.

Article 15 of the Act gave £398,085 10s sterling to Scotland, an amount called The Equivalent, to offset future liability towards the English national debt. In effect it was used as a way of compensating investors in the Darien Scheme, as 58.6% was allocated to the Company of Scotland's shareholders and creditors.

Darien certainly didn't help, but it wasn't the game changer everyone makes it out to be. Scotland would've recovered, but the Aliens act was far more threatening to Scottish trade, 50% of which was to either England or the 13 colonies.

Really, the whole thing stemmed from Scotland wanting to influence how the next royal succession went (and the extent of royal power in Scotland) or subtly disconnecting itself from the Union of crowns before ballsing it up when the English establishment felt threatened enough to force Scotland into a position where the act of union was inevitable.

[renton]

Scotland finally gets to vote for its independence in 2014 and voted against it the majority of people in Scotland are pro Union

You asked why there wasn't a revolt at the time, I replied, not sure what the above is a response to.

However, I'd shy away from imposing simple binaries on folk such that voting No in September means a person is pro Union, any more than someone voting Yes is a died in the wool nationalist.

[Antiochas III]

Scotland finally gets to vote for its independence in 2014 and voted against it the majority of people in Scotland are pro Union

"in Scotland". I did not know that every single person in Scotland a)voted and b) are Scottish

[Baxter Parp]

Because Wikipedia is 100% factual use some proper sources and then I'll maybe consider your argument

Thought not.

[H_B]

Ah Darien.

Perhaps you could regale us again with your tales of English ships blockading the settlers again Darien Parp.

Good times.. Good times.

[renton]

Ah Darien.

Perhaps you could regale us again with your tales of English ships blockading the settlers again Darien Parp.

Good times.. Good times.

What was that thing about Anthony C Pick?

[Alan Stubbs]

Yeah, thanks to the.. Err.. Tories.

Must be a real sickener that the only reason EVEL is floundering is nothing to do with Djimi Traore and is actually down to a perceived revolt from the Tory backbenches.

Still if the scramblers for relevance wish to claim a Tory back bench revolt as a victory for their wee group huddled together for warmth, that's sweet. No one is fooled though.

Ah, so when the premature gloating about the SNP's vote being meaningless is happening, I'll assume that's literal and based on reality. But when that vote actually does count for something, we'll factor in the fantasy hypotheticals about who would've voted the same way in their place. Got you.

[H_B]

Ah, so when the premature gloating about the SNP's vote being meaningless is happening, I'll assume that's literal and based on reality. But when that vote actually does count for something, we'll factor in the fantasy hypotheticals about who would've voted the same way in their place. Got you.

Well the SNP vote would indeed be utterly meaningless if the Tories could rely on their own MPs.

That this is being hailed as some sort of SNP victory is excruciating.

[Airdrie Onions]

I'm afraid you're wrong socialists are never considered right wing it's the closest thing thing to communist politics without actually being communist although the Nazis true ideology was fascism having a feeling that their nationality was the best and no one could overcome their greatness as a race.

That's not true, Hitler admits in Mein Kampf that he believes the Japanese are superior to the European races.

[Alan Stubbs]

Well the SNP vote would indeed be utterly meaningless if the Tories could rely on their own MPs.

It would if they could. But they can't, so it isn't. Unlucky.

That this is being hailed as some sort of SNP victory is excruciating.

Bit of a riddy that you're using the words put in my mouth by Thundercats - a complete simpleton who woefully misunderstood what I was saying. Multiple times.

It's hardly some great victory but it makes those jumping both feet in to the "wahaaay, Cameron can do what he likes, SNPBAD" argument look like complete tubes.

[H_B]

You seem to be all over the shop here.

The SNP are filling the same role as the Lib Dems and Labour here. Opposition bench fillers to vote against Cameron.

This has been a disaster for you. Sums up really what an irrelevance they are that their fanboys are trying to use this as some sort of victorious achievement.

What an embarrassment .. Ooft.

This is what you get when you try and white knight for the clown collective types.