strichener Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I didn't mention 50% anywhere I don't think? yeah, it was me. no idea why strichener dragged you into it. Apologies, my mistake Kyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Brieifing Paper : Britain and Europe: A New Relationship (page 22) fullfact.org which proffers a range of interpetations between 15 and 50% Hansard Society (2005) claims 50%, presumably based on "Lord" Triesman's statement. that'll do for starters. There are roasters claiming that EU legislation informs 80% of UK parliamentary acts, clearly over-stating the case. Triesman states "We estimate that around 50% of UK legislation with a significant economic impact has its origins in EU legislation.". That does not equate to c. 50% of Westminster legislation. Your middle reference gives more credence to Antlion's claim that no one knows more than your own circa 50% claim. Your third reference has the same source as the first one. In terms of primary legislation, i.e. the ones that Westminster passes, nowhere near 50% is EU originated, even your own sources acknowledge this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The sad thing about the EU debate is that party politics and 'sides' mean that we are unlikely to have a reasoned debate about the many problems of the EU institutions. The EU is a largely undemocratic, monolithic and financially questionable organisation. Yet I here very few pro EU supporters, including the SNP elected representatives,highlighting any of its failings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The sad thing about the EU debate is that party politics and 'sides' mean that we are unlikely to have a reasoned debate about the many problems of the EU institutions. The EU is a largely undemocratic, monolithic and financially questionable organisation. Yet I here very few pro EU supporters, including the SNP elected representatives,highlighting any of its failings. Our problem in the UK is with the perception that we are the only ones that obey the rules (especially when they can be seen in a negative light). In terms of the failings of the EU, these are many and varied but those in power in the UK would rather that the reasoning behind most of these issue be kept from the public. For example, see today's complaint from Scottish fishermen about the £40m of Scottish fish that the Faroe Island have caught and the < £1m that the EU has caught in Faroes waters. Now who negotiated that deal??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Triesman states "We estimate that around 50% of UK legislation with a significant economic impact has its origins in EU legislation.". That does not equate to c. 50% of Westminster legislation. Your middle reference gives more credence to Antlion's claim that no one knows more than your own circa 50% claim. Your third reference has the same source as the first one. In terms of primary legislation, i.e. the ones that Westminster passes, nowhere near 50% is EU originated, even your own sources acknowledge this. split hairs all you like. The claim that "nowhere near 50% is EU originated" is not the case even according to these few sources. Indeed as the House of Commons Library concluded, it is “possible to justify any measure between 15% and 50% or thereabouts, depending on the approach.” However you calibrate your judgement, a significant chunk (c.50% IMO but there are different opinions) of Westminster legislation originates in the undemocratic, unaccountable instituion that is the EU. As someone who prefers full democratic control over lawmaking and other political processes, this for me is a big concern and a reason to vote to get out. That's before we get onto the clownshoe performance of the EU and EC on the big issues (handling the refugee crisis, fiscal regulation, foregin policy disaster after disaster) in the last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 https://fullfact.org/europe/eu_make_uk_law-29587 "In 2010, the House of Commons library published a comprehensive analysis of the variety of ways this percentage can be calculated. There are difficulties with all measurements, but they concluded “it is possible to justify any measure between 15% and 50% or thereabouts”. The figures depend on which UK law is included in the calculation, and the extent of ‘EU influence’ that we look at. There is no single interpretation of UK law, it can include: Acts put in place by the UK Parliament; rules and regulations drawn up by Ministers; and regulations produced by the EU which apply here in the UK. A combination of these interpretations results in the following estimates: 1: Acts put in place by UK Parliament with EU influence – accounts for 10-14% 2: Regulations influenced by or related to the EU – accounts for 9-14% 3. EU regulations and regulations influenced by or related to the EU – accounts for 53% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The EU- a crisis without end in this week's New Statesman. A long read but worth sticking with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 split hairs all you like. The claim that "nowhere near 50% is EU originated" is not the case even according to these few sources. However you calibrate your judgement, a significant chunk (c.50% IMO but there are different opinions) of Westminster legislation originates in the undemocratic, unaccountable instituion that is the EU. As someone who prefers full democratic control over lawmaking and other political processes, this for me is a big concern and a reason to vote to get out. That's before we get onto the clownshoe performance of the EU and EC on the big issues (handling the refugee crisis, fiscal regulation, foregin policy disaster after disaster) in the last few years. Leaving aside the percentage issue, all the big issues that you mention are actually within the control of the UK already. The UK would probably be better off ceding control of fiscal regulation and foreign policy after the utter balls we have made of both. In terms of the refugee crisis, the EU will probably go further than the UK actually wants as we have alreasy tried to reduce the numbers we take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotbawmad Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The EU- a crisis without end in this week's New Statesman. A long read but worth sticking with. I don't disagree that things are about to get ugly (or exiting as another way of putting it) over the next 5 years, but I think it's unlikely the UK would remain in the EU only as a result of the non-English vote. Scotland would need a similar turnout in the independence referendum and vote 60%+ in favour of staying in Europe. Whilst I don't deny Scotland will return a stronger Yes vote. It's not going to be anything like that high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Stubbs Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The sad thing about the EU debate is that party politics and 'sides' mean that we are unlikely to have a reasoned debate about the many problems of the EU institutions. The EU is a largely undemocratic, monolithic and financially questionable organisation. Yet I here very few pro EU supporters, including the SNP elected representatives,highlighting any of its failings. Agree with that first paragraph and it applies to both sides. The "we need Europe for xmillion jobs" and "Europe holds x% of our sovereignty" arguments are both such over-simplified, numbers pulled out of someone's arse statistics that the debate is rendered practically meaningless. I'm swaying from stay* to maybe on this one, I do hope the public debate becomes a bit more sophisticated. *Antilon, even though I'm marginally on your side here, the "your beloved Westminster" patter to self-declared Yes voters is chronic. Shouty, with us or against us bollocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoRaj Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 The sad thing about the EU debate is that party politics and 'sides' mean that we are unlikely to have a reasoned debate about the many problems of the EU institutions. The EU is a largely undemocratic, monolithic and financially questionable organisation. Yet I here very few pro EU supporters, including the SNP elected representatives,highlighting any of its failings. It will be interesting to see. I'm certainly going in with an open mind. As noted above, I like the free movement and some other benefits but it does seem to be wholly undemocratic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Leaving aside the percentage issue, all the big issues that you mention are actually within the control of the UK already. The UK would probably be better off ceding control of fiscal regulation and foreign policy after the utter balls we have made of both. In terms of the refugee crisis, the EU will probably go further than the UK actually wants as we have alreasy tried to reduce the numbers we take. The records of the EU and UK in both areas (fiscal policy & foreign policy) are pretty disastrous. Hence I'd like to see us taking a different approach. Knowing a lot of people involved in trying to help refugees as they make their way through Greece and ex-Yugoslavia, it really is hard to take a positive view of the EU's handling of the refugee crisis- one disastrous blunder after another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 A left wing case for withdrawal something to think about...I don't agree with all the reasoning in this leaflet but most of it rings true and the core of it seems to make a good case for getting out. it also makes the point, quite well, that you don;t have to be a bitter-swilling, foreigner-hating Farageophile to want out of the EU. It's a difficult topic and just as emotive an issue as last year's referendum. If even the people vote Yes to stay in, but become more critical of /aware of the problems in the EU then that will have made the whole process worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I'm wondering if Cameron is painting himself into a corner. Certain of his 'demands' have no chance of being approved by the EU. It will be interesting to see what he does as this becomes apparent. The machinations of the rivals to suceed him should also create a few popcorn sessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 It's a big game of charades. Cameron would like to neutralise UKIP and the right wing loons in his own party (Bill Cash, Redwood and the like). He has his own internal electoral reasons for doing so. It's in the interests of Europe's leaders to play along, and for right wing Eurosceptics to be neutralised in a referendum defeat. after all, that same tactic worked so well in taming the SNP, didn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooky Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I think I'm slowly changing my mind on the EU. A good while back I was quite eurosceptic but then I gradually become a supporter of the EU. Now, whilst not advocating a vote to leave, I'm certainly willing to give both sides of the argument a fair listen. If I voted to leave it wouldn't be to do with immigration, but mainly due to a lack of accountability/democracy in Brussels. I'm holding off saying whatever way I'm going to vote until I see what the final settlement looks like, but I'm not confident that Cameron will get anything meaningful. Certainly to satisfy his backbenchers he'll need some form of treaty change, and that's not looking all that likely. It'll probably end up like the IndyRef where I didn't make up my mind fully until I was actually in the polling station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Has anybody mentioned to Dave that theres 3million odd brits living/working in other european states?Or like the facebook seethers are they forgotten about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikedafc Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 The SNP has to work/ make deals with the Tories when they had a minority government along with the other parties in their 1st 4 years of government Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Survation: Scotland: leave 41% remain 59% England: leave 54% remain 46% Britain: leave 53% remain 47% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I've got no faith in this pro EU campaign Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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