Kyle Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 It won't be worse until it creates one sovereign state out of all EU nations, collects all those nations' revenue in Brussels and returns block grants, and has a sovereign government chosen by the larger nation only. I'm all for a debate on the EU once Scotland becomes an independent country, but hoping the UK leaves whilst Scotland is part of it strikes me as odd if one believes in Scottish independence. Why would you vote to strengthen Westminster and give it more power and authority? If we do become Independent, then we'll remain a part of the EU as that was one of the big arguments yes put forward. The conditions attached to us joining as an independent nation is that we take their failing currency and that we follow their laws, decided by unelected bureaucrats, that override our own. I don't see the sense in being independent from the UK when we have an unelected commission that we'd likely have no say in making a huge percentage of our decisions anyway. There's obviously a lot of benefits to being a member of the EU - the ability to form a massive trade block and the free movement of workers (although perhaps not the free movement of people) being two particularly massive ones - but it's much more complicated decision for me than the UK referendum was for a host of reasons. I certainly don't want to see people out of jobs, but I'd argue that the EU has been harmful to our economy in other ways (ask those in the fishing industry for example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I can't believe you've just used the old myth we would had to have taken the euro. We also already follow many European laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I can't believe you've just used the old myth we would had to have taken the euro. We also already follow many European laws. Maybe we wouldn't. Bearing in mind we'd be a new member with very little overall sway, I'm sure we'd have some conditions placed on us, even if that isn't one of them. If it isn't then fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 If we do become Independent, then we'll remain a part of the EU as that was one of the big arguments yes put forward. The conditions attached to us joining as an independent nation is that we take their failing currency and that we follow their laws, decided by unelected bureaucrats, that override our own. I don't see the sense in being independent from the UK when we have an unelected commission that we'd likely have no say in making a huge percentage of our decisions anyway. Because we, Scotland, could leave the EU whenever we voted to if we were an independent member. We cannot do that as part of the U.K. We cannot even call a referendum on the issue. There's obviously a lot of benefits to being a member of the EU - the ability to form a massive trade block and the free movement of workers (although perhaps not the free movement of people) being two particularly massive ones - but it's much more complicated decision for me than the UK referendum was for a host of reasons. I certainly don't want to see people out of jobs, but I'd argue that the EU has been harmful to our economy in other ways (ask those in the fishing industry for example). A bit like debating the colour of Scotland's Olympic Team's kit. Utterly pointless as long we're a minor region of a member state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 In what way is Westminster sovereignty worse than Brussels sovereignty? At least with Westminster you stand a (small) chance of changing things if you don't like the government of the day. Good luck changing the unelected European Commission if you don't like it. If you're being cynical, too, an "out" vote from the EU is likely to bring about a second referendum. Ultimately I want to see power over political decisions in Scotland residing with the Scottish parliament in Edinburgh and with powerful local authorities underneath that. I'd like to see a return to a parliament that concerns itself with the direction of travel of the country, together with local authorities with the clout and budget to implement them. I want power in our own hands. What's true about voting to get away from the clutches of Westminster is possibly even more true of the corrupt muppets in Brussels. Again, utterly pointless discussion as long as we're a minor region of a member state. If and when Scotland is independent, it can have a meaningful discussion on being in or out of the EU. As it is, I'm not sure if I'll even vote, but if I do, it will be "in"; I won't be voting to strengthen Westminster. As for why "Westminster sovereignty" is worse, try this on for size; the Tory party, which Scotland overwhelmingly rejected at the ballot box, nevertheless has sovereign power over Scotland when it come to: the constitution, including: the Crown the Union with England, Northern Ireland and Wales the UK Parliament the existence of the (criminal) High Court of Justiciary the existence of the (civil) Court of Session registration and funding of political parties international relations, including: international development the regulation of international trade the Home Civil Service defence treason Specific reservations cover particular areas of social and economic policy which are reserved to Westminster, listed under 11 'heads':[6] Head A - Financial and Economic Matters fiscal, economic and monetary policy currency financial services financial markets money laundering Head B - Home Affairs drug abuse data protection and access to information elections firearms film classification immigration and nationality scientific procedures on live animals national security and counter-terrorism betting, gaming and lotteries emergency powers extradition lieutenancies Head C Trade and Industry business associations insolvency competition intellectual property import and export control sea fishing outside the Scottish zone customer protection product standards, safety and liability weights and measures telecommunications postal services research councils Head D Energy electricity oil and gas coal nuclear energy energy efficiency Head E - Transport road transport rail transport marine transport air transport Head F Social Security social security schemes child support pensions Head G Regulation of the Professions architect health professions auditor Head H Employment employment and industrial relations health and safety Head J Health and Medicines abortion xenotransplantation embryology, surrogacy and human genetics medicines, medical supplies and poisons welfare foods Head K Media and Culture broadcasting public lending right Head L Miscellaneous judicial salaries equal opportunities control of weapons of mass destruction Ordnance Survey time outer space (And an "out" vote in the EU referendum will give it even more - yay, UK democracy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 More sway than we would have now. We'd also have the choice to make the decisive for ourselves, not having to go along with what England votes for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Antlion - I'm not sure why you're bothering to post in the EU referendum thread if you think it's a pointless discussion? Both Ivo and I voted yes in the referendum and I think we're both very much still on that side of that argument. Unfortunately, we're stuck in the union and we have to make the best of what we can with that. If we have to be in the UK, I'd rather elected UK MPs had those powers than the unelected EU commission personally. As I've said already, I'm leaning to vote out but I've not made up my mind yet. I haven't done any research and there's a lot I don't really understand just now - I could very well vote to stay on the day. On a different note, I see there's talk that the referendum will be next June. We'll be democracied oot our nuts next summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Antlion - I'm not sure why you're bothering to post in the EU referendum thread if you think it's a pointless discussion? Both Ivo and I voted yes in the referendum and I think we're both very much still on that side of that argument. Unfortunately, we're stuck in the union and we have to make the best of what we can with that. If we have to be in the UK, I'd rather elected UK MPs had those powers than the unelected EU commission personally. As I've said already, I'm leaning to vote out but I've not made up my mind yet. I haven't done any research and there's a lot I don't really understand just now - I could very well vote to stay on the day. On a different note, I see there's talk that the referendum will be next June. We'll be democracied oot our nuts next summer. It's an important issue and its result will be important. But that doesn't mean Scotland's voice will matter. Frankly, I think the prospect of being within the UK but outside the EU is scarier than the alternative. Decades of future Tory government with no higher governmental tier (and rather than "unelected EU commissioners", those powers will be returned to unelected UK ministers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Again, utterly pointless discussion as long as we're a minor region of a member state. If and when Scotland is independent, it can have a meaningful discussion on being in or out of the EU. As it is, I'm not sure if I'll even vote, but if I do, it will be "in"; I won't be voting to strengthen Westminster. As for why "Westminster sovereignty" is worse, try this on for size; the Tory party, which Scotland overwhelmingly rejected at the ballot box, nevertheless has sovereign power over Scotland when it come to: the constitution, including: the Crown the Union with England, Northern Ireland and Wales the UK Parliament the existence of the (criminal) High Court of Justiciary the existence of the (civil) Court of Session registration and funding of political parties international relations, including: international development the regulation of international trade the Home Civil Service defence treason Specific reservations cover particular areas of social and economic policy which are reserved to Westminster, listed under 11 'heads':[6] Head A - Financial and Economic Matters fiscal, economic and monetary policy currency financial services financial markets money laundering Head B - Home Affairs drug abuse data protection and access to information elections firearms film classification immigration and nationality scientific procedures on live animals national security and counter-terrorism betting, gaming and lotteries emergency powers extradition lieutenancies Head C Trade and Industry business associations insolvency competition intellectual property import and export control sea fishing outside the Scottish zone customer protection product standards, safety and liability weights and measures telecommunications postal services research councils Head D Energy electricity oil and gas coal nuclear energy energy efficiency Head E - Transport road transport rail transport marine transport air transport Head F Social Security social security schemes child support pensions Head G Regulation of the Professions architect health professions auditor Head H Employment employment and industrial relations health and safety Head J Health and Medicines abortion xenotransplantation embryology, surrogacy and human genetics medicines, medical supplies and poisons welfare foods Head K Media and Culture broadcasting public lending right Head L Miscellaneous judicial salaries equal opportunities control of weapons of mass destruction Ordnance Survey time outer space (And an "out" vote in the EU referendum will give it even more - yay, UK democracy) you are aware that c. 50% of Westminster legislation originates in Brussels these days, right? guess what- if we vote for independece within the EU, c. 50% of our laws won't be made in Edinburgh, but in Brussels. Which still leaves us little to no say over a lot of the issues listed here. It still leaves is shackled to atrocities like TTIP and to the economically far-right agenda of the EU (privatise everything, no state aid, light touch regulation of financial industries, just ignore the will of electorates when they don't agree with you, etc etc etc) I really don't get the point of seething about "unelected" UK ministers when selfsame ministers are spending much of their time administering the unelected will of the European Commission and rubber-stamp parliament. It is totally absurd to present Europe as somehow "better" than Westminster on the basis of very little evidence. Scotland may not have voted for a Tory government but the Scottish electorate can play a part in removing it in the future if it wishes. Scotland, whether part of the UK or independent from it, will never be able to play a part in de-selecting a European Commission it doesn't like- no one can. So you are simply not comparing like with like when putting our power of recall over a UK cabinet minister, with an EU commissioner. One has an elecotrate to answer to- one doesn't. It is totally pointless voting to dissolve the UK without also voting to get out of the EU. Scotland needs to leave both unions to re-discover true sovereignty on our own terms. You are blinded by hatred of Westminster I fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 you are aware that c. 50% of Westminster legislation originates in Brussels these days, right? Nope, because the figure is a complete fallacy. No one agrees on how much legislation originates (i.e. actually has its genesis) in Brussels. guess what- if we vote for independece within the EU, c. 50% of our laws won't be made in Edinburgh, but in Brussels. So when we're an independent country, fight for a referendum on Scotland's EU membership. Which still leaves us little to no say over a lot of the issues listed here. It still leaves is shackled to atrocities like TTIP and to the economically far-right agenda of the EU (privatise everything, no state aid, light touch regulation of financial industries, just ignore the will of electorates when they don't agree with you, etc etc etc) So your argument is "we have no say over these things, so I will vote to continue having no say over them?" Honestly, if you want Scotland to leave the UK/EU, then the last thing you want to do is further strengthen the more restricting of those unions (the one that actually holds sovereign power). I really don't get the point of seething about "unelected" UK ministers when selfsame ministers are spending much of their time administering the unelected will of the European Commission and rubber-stamp parliament. It is totally absurd to present Europe as somehow "better" than Westminster on the basis of very little evidence. Scotland may not have voted for a Tory government but the Scottish electorate can play a part in removing it in the future if it wishes. Every complaint you have about the EU goes double for Westminster. Unelected commissions? Check. Centralised power? Check. Appointed ministers? Check. Throw in Lords, Ladies and - oh yes - the fact that the UK is legally an incorporating union which absorbs member states into one single country whilst the EU is a looser, semi-federal Union and your championing of Westminster to the detriment of Brussels rings hollow. As for Scotland being able to help remove a Tory government - good luck with that. You have as much chance as the next European President being from Paisley. Scotland, whether part of the UK or independent from it, will never be able to play a part in de-selecting a European Commission it doesn't like- no one can. So you are simply not comparing like with like when putting our power of recall over a UK cabinet minister, with an EU commissioner. One has an elecotrate to answer to- one doesn't. You mean like how we can't deselect a cabinet, or deselect an MP, or deselect a Lord, or deselect a Baroness, or deselect a Royal? Once again, the EU could learn a great deal in terms of corruption and lack of democracy from your wonderful UK. It is totally pointless voting to dissolve the UK without also voting to get out of the EU. Scotland needs to leave both unions to re-discover true sovereignty on our own terms. You are blinded by hatred of Westminster I fear. What part of "WE CANNOT CHOOSE TO LEAVE THE EU AS A MINOR REGION OF THE UK" is not sinking in? It's not exactly a difficult concept. If you want out of the EU, then we need to actually be an independent country. Otherwise you are just playin a minor role in strengthening the power and authority of your favoured, ermine-bedecked, appointment-filled Westminster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Nope, because the figure is a complete fallacy. No one agrees on how much legislation originates (i.e. actually has its genesis) in Brussels. In what way is the figure "a complete fallacy"? Are you denying that any legislation comes from Brussels? Shape shifting and semantics. Dearie me. So when we're an independent country, fight for a referendum on Scotland's EU membership. why wait? the opportunity to leave will be coming along soon. So your argument is "we have no say over these things, so I will vote to continue having no say over them?" Honestly, if you want Scotland to leave the UK/EU, then the last thing you want to do is further strengthen the more restricting of those unions (the one that actually holds sovereign power). we have an in / out referendum. I am saying "out". I take that as having a say over things.Every complaint you have about the EU goes double for Westminster. Unelected commissions? Check. Centralised power? Check. Appointed ministers? Check. Throw in Lords, Ladies and - oh yes - the fact that the UK is legally an incorporating union which absorbs member states into one single country whilst the EU is a looser, semi-federal Union and your championing of Westminster to the detriment of Brussels rings hollow. As for Scotland being able to help remove a Tory government - good luck with that. You have as much chance as the next European President being from Paisley. Can we deselect a UK government by election, yes or no? Can we deselect a European Commission by election, yes or no? Blinded by Westminster hatred, as I suspected. You mean like how we can't deselect a cabinet, or deselect an MP, or deselect a Lord, or deselect a Baroness, or deselect a Royal? Once again, the EU could learn a great deal in terms of corruption and lack of democracy from your wonderful UK. ^^ "my wionderful UK"? for fucks sake, I voted yes last year. Get a grip. What part of "WE CANNOT CHOOSE TO LEAVE THE EU AS A MINOR REGION OF THE UK" is not sinking in? It's not exactly a difficult concept. If you want out of the EU, then we need to actually be an independent country. Otherwise you are just playin a minor role in strengthening the power and authority of your favoured, ermine-bedecked, appointment-filled Westminster. ^^ heads gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I'll try and make the best of that diarrhetic attempt to use the quote function. In what way is the figure "a complete fallacy"? Are you denying that any legislation comes from Brussels? Shape shifting and semantics. Dearie me. No - that's a classic straw man argument, beloved of the terminally thick. "You claim my figure is fallacious and so you must mean that the true figure is ZERO!". Poor stuff, even by the remarkable ignorance you've shown thus far. why wait? the opportunity to leave will be coming along soon. Not for Scotland it won't. Every person of voting age could choose to leave and we'd remain in. Can we deselect a UK government by election, yes or no? No. Scotland cannot. Can we deselect a European Commission by election, yes or no? Blinded by Westminster hatred, as I suspected. Not directly, any more than we can deselect a UK cabinet or its ministers directly. But by all means, "UK GOOD! EU BAD". Given you absolve one body for its lack of democracy and decry another, I can't help but wonder if your views aren't closer to UKIP than you like to admit. ^^ "my wionderful UK"? for fucks sake, I voted yes last year. Get a grip. Indeed - it's pretty standard to vote to leave something and then demand it is strengthened against the wheedling influence of Johnny Foreigner. It appears here that you seem to believe Scottish independence was about isolationism rather than electing to make our own choices as an independent nation re: supranational bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 When the argument is thin, run for the insults. The classic hallmark of a shouty student insecure when his simplistic worldview is challenged. No - that's a classic straw man argument, beloved of the terminally thick. "You claim my figure is fallacious and so you must mean that the true figure is ZERO!". Poor stuff, even by the remarkable ignorance you've shown thus far. well, not really. you attempted to hide behind the "No One knows!!!" line when confronted about the amount of EU legislation Westminster is obliged to pass. Ignorant at best, dishonest at worst. Not for Scotland it won't. Every person of voting age could choose to leave and we'd remain in. I'm sure that sounded good in your head. I'm not sure what relationship it bears to reality. No. Scotland cannot. But the whole UK can. Dishonest again. Not directly, any more than we can deselect a UK cabinet or its ministers directly. But by all means, "UK GOOD! EU BAD". Given you absolve one body for its lack of democracy and decry another, I can't help but wonder if your views aren't closer to UKIP than you like to admit. Are you Supras in disguise? An embarrassingly dsingenuous answer. Indeed - it's pretty standard to vote to leave something and then demand it is strengthened against the wheedling influence of Johnny Foreigner. It appears here that you seem to believe Scottish independence was about isolationism rather than electing to make our own choices as an independent nation re: supranational bodies. I'd be grateful if you didn't try to work out what my views are on the basis of misunderstanding / distorting what I have already written. Suffice it to say that my views on an independent Scotland are not isolationist. Rather, it's about having the self belief to set our own priorities and agenda rather than filtering our aims through a supranational union (be that the UK or the EU). Iceland and Norway, those extreme right wing bastions of little-Scandinavian isolationism, seem to manage it fine. The In / Out of the EU referendum is part of a long process. I accept that my views are probably in a minority in Scotland. But an overall no vote pretty much triggers a second referendum which the "Yes" camp would be very likely to win, and then an independent Scotland would have a strong neogtiating hand with which to negotiate to return to the EU, if that's what the majority of the people want. Not everyone who will vote to get out of the EU is a little Englander, House of Lords genuflecter, Johnny Foreigner-hater or UKIP fanboy. If you have the wit to grasp that then your views on the debate might move beyond the pathetic caricatures that characterise your position at present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 When the argument is thin, run for the insults. The classic hallmark of a shouty student insecure when his simplistic worldview is challenged. well, not really. you attempted to hide behind the "No One knows!!!" line when confronted about the amount of EU legislation Westminster is obliged to pass. Ignorant at best, dishonest at worst. The original claim was that circa 50% of our laws originate in the EU. To then post the following In what way is the figure "a complete fallacy"? Are you denying that any legislation comes from Brussels? Shape shifting and semantics. Dearie me. whilst claiming that someone else is ignorant or dishonest is at best ironic and at worst moronic. Bottom Line - can you back up Kyle's c. 50% claim with sources or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Brieifing Paper : Britain and Europe: A New Relationship (page 22) fullfact.org which proffers a range of interpetations between 15 and 50% Hansard Society (2005) claims 50%, presumably based on "Lord" Triesman's statement. that'll do for starters. There are roasters claiming that EU legislation informs 80% of UK parliamentary acts, clearly over-stating the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The original claim was that circa 50% of our laws originate in the EU. To then post the following whilst claiming that someone else is ignorant or dishonest is at best ironic and at worst moronic. Bottom Line - can you back up Kyle's c. 50% claim with sources or not? I didn't mention 50% anywhere I don't think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 yeah, it was me. no idea why strichener dragged you into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundermonkey Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Are you Supras in disguise? Try mentioning him in other threads. If it's Supras he'll find the comments and reply to them. The boy loves a little vanity search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 yeah, it was me. no idea why strichener dragged you into it. I fear we're about to outcasted by the P&B political posse Ivo. Winter is definitely coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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