loyal-blue Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Is it possible to back Scotland leaving the UK but not the UK leaving the EU without looking like a hypocrite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Is it possible to back Scotland leaving the UK but not the UK leaving the EU without looking like a hypocrite? Yes, absolutely. HTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Brian Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Is it possible to back Scotland leaving the UK but not the UK leaving the EU without looking like a hypocrite? Quite simply yes it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Is it possible to back Scotland leaving the UK but not the UK leaving the EU without looking like a hypocrite? Of course - the UK has far more control over its member states than the UK does. What's hypocritical is criticising the EU for being a control-freak union bent on creating a superstate whilst championing the UK for being that x100. Just imagine, for a second, telling a UKIPer that they should support the UK giving up its sovereignty and becoming a minor region of Europe, governed from Brussels, with all British revenue sent there and a block grant returned. They'd explode. But they demand that Scotland remain in this model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyal-blue Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Let's look at arguments from the yes campaign. Get a government we vote for - leave EU. Bring Government closer to home - leave EU. Give more money than we get back - leave EU. Corrupt - leave EU. You get the idea. It will be amusing to watch the SNP scaremongering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Let's look at arguments from the yes campaign. Get a government we vote for - leave EU. Bring Government closer to home - leave EU. Give more money than we get back - leave EU. Corrupt - leave EU. You get the idea. It will be amusing to watch the SNP scaremongering. Oh dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyal-blue Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I voted yes in the referendum, I just struggle to see how the main arguments don't apply equally to the EU referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Brian Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I voted yes in the referendum, I just struggle to see how the main arguments don't apply equally to the EU referendum. It really depends on who you see as best serving your interests. As far as I am concerned the UK does not and never will serve the interests of the people of Scotland. The EU does. (Probably does. I am not 100% convinced yet) If the view you held was one of Scottish Independence because of narrow minded nationalism then you probably would be a hypocrite, but the overwhelming majority of rational sane people never saw independence like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Let's look at arguments from the yes campaign. Get a government we vote for - leave EU. Bring Government closer to home - leave EU. Give more money than we get back - leave EU. Corrupt - leave EU. You get the idea. It will be amusing to watch the SNP scaremongering. Whereas you'll be preaching that we're better together, and should in fact close up Westminster and relocate some select MPs to represent us in Brussels. After all, incorporating Union is good enough for Scotland, why not the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I voted yes in the referendum, I just struggle to see how the main arguments don't apply equally to the EU referendum. Look up "political union". Wiki has a decent article outlining the different types. The U.K. is an "incorporating union" which absorbs member states into one single state. The EU is not - it is nowhere near as controlling and wields nowhere near the amount of power over its member states that the UK does over the home nations. One cannot really carp about the EU being controlling, overly powerful and centralising whilst also championing a political union that *actually extinguishes the sovereign independence* of its member states and centralises all executive power in Westminster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 For what it's worth, if the EU ever did signal an intention to follow the UK model, I'd object to Scotland being a member. As it is, it makes little sense for any advocate of Scottish independence to want the UK to leave the EU. All this would do is strengthen the more constricting British Union due to leaving the looser European one. Scotland's place in the EU is, of course, a moot point as long as we're a minor part of the actual member state. Like Scotland retaining a monarch, it's a debate for an independent country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I'm not all that convinced about the EU as an institution or governing body tbh but the freedom of movement is superb and something I hope to take advantage of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I'm not all that convinced about the EU as an institution or governing body tbh but the freedom of movement is superb and something I hope to take advantage of. It's also something that I don't believe a majority of people are actually against. A very vocal minority oppose the free movement of people, but they tend to be the type who simply oppose immigration and see the EU as a totemic bete noir around which to gather and blame for the presence of foreigners. The "we need to take back control of our borders" mob simply see the EU as problematic because they think it encourages the other to flock to Blighty. It actually raises another important point of difference between the Scottish independence movement and the U.K. independence movement. Notice that the "Yes Scotland" campaign welcomed a social union across the British Isles and had no plans to build a wall above Carlisle to reverse the free movement of people between Scotland and England (which has existed since the Treaty of Union). The anti-EU proponents, however, seem to see withdrawal from the European Union as a means to institute just that - throwing up walls, discouraging movement and introducing quotas on how many of (what would become) our former neighbouring European citizens can enter the UK. Just imagine if "Yes Scotland" has seriously been underpinned by the desire to keep people out in the way "Leave.EU" and its fellows are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotbawmad Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I'm not all that convinced about the EU as an institution or governing body tbh but the freedom of movement is superb and something I hope to take advantage of. Chances are the vote will either be a vote to be in the European Economic Area or Schengen, which means freedom of movement will still apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Chances are the vote will either be a vote to be in the European Economic Area or Schengen, which means freedom of movement will still apply. As well as the adoption of EU legislation and payments to Brussels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 So it looks like the out campaign will be using Better Together tactics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I am for an independent Scotland outwith the neo-liberal cheerleader club that is the EU. I voted Yes last year and will be voting to get out of the EU whenever this referendum thing happens. I am for government being held accountable at as local a level as possible and basically it is not possible to hold the fundamentally undemocratic EU to account. It's not nice being on the same side as Farage, UKIP, much of the Tory grassroots, and various other far-right loonballs, but then I suppose if you're for staying in then it can't be pleasant being on the same side as Call Me Dave, Blair, Mandelson, Baroness Kinnock, Tim fucking Farron. and various "self made millionaires". The chatter of the centre-and-far-right will dominate the coming debate and it won't be pretty. Nonetheless, there are good left-wing, and decent pro-democracy, arguments to make for leaving the EU. Fifteen years ago it was possible to see the EU as some kind of social democratic bulwark against Blair's continuity Thatcherite agenda. Not any more. The shambolic handling of the refugee crisis, TTIP, the dismal foreign policy bungling in just about, well everywhere (Ukraine being the most serious), the rolling-over and acquiescing as Europe's steel indistry is destroyed by the Chinese, and the shafting of the Irish, Greeks and Portuguese would be reasons enough by themsleves to come out. Taken together they are pretty unanswerable as a case for leaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Must be honest, I'm leaning towards an out vote as well for much the same reasons as above. I happily voted against a democratic union that I saw as detrimental to Scotland last year, why wouldn't I vote for an undemocratic one which arguably is even worse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Must be honest, I'm leaning towards an out vote as well for much the same reasons as above. I happily voted against a democratic union that I saw as detrimental to Scotland last year, why wouldn't I vote for an undemocratic one which arguably is even worse? It won't be worse until it creates one sovereign state out of all EU nations, collects all those nations' revenue in Brussels and returns block grants, and has a sovereign government chosen by the larger nation only. I'm all for a debate on the EU once Scotland becomes an independent country, but hoping the UK leaves whilst Scotland is part of it strikes me as odd if one believes in Scottish independence. Why would you vote to strengthen Westminster and give it more power and authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 In what way is Westminster sovereignty worse than Brussels sovereignty? At least with Westminster you stand a (small) chance of changing things if you don't like the government of the day. Good luck changing the unelected European Commission if you don't like it. If you're being cynical, too, an "out" vote from the EU is likely to bring about a second referendum. Ultimately I want to see power over political decisions in Scotland residing with the Scottish parliament in Edinburgh and with powerful local authorities underneath that. I'd like to see a return to a parliament that concerns itself with the direction of travel of the country, together with local authorities with the clout and budget to implement them. I want power in our own hands. What's true about voting to get away from the clutches of Westminster is possibly even more true of the corrupt muppets in Brussels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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