New Clubs

[stanley]

Ate Fleet Star coming back next season?

Sorry just noticed HJ already asked.

Bonnyton sound interesting.  Aiming for a licence?

[info]

Sadly don't think Flee Star are even thinking about a return. Stranraer and Annan South teams and will be welcome.Bonnytown with all the good will in the world are planning great things but to allow them in would be to continue to denigrate the SOS to being an easy?? and lazy entry to the pyramid.

If the west of scotland clubs want to join in then welcome but let them put in the hard work South of Scotland(and East) over decades and form a West of Scotland branch of the pyramid and not cuckoo the SOS league .

[stanley]

It's the fault of the system (and the organisations) that there is no senior west league; not the fault of individual clubs.  Either they join the South of Scotland League or they don't join the seniors at all.  They can't create a senior league on their own.

[info]

True but the South and East were create to allow clubs to play within a reasonable distance of each other as were the junior leagues. Longer traqvel distances put an unreasonable strain on the finances of clubs. Perhaps they should try the Highlaqnd league!!  

[cmontheloknow]

The Lowland has 2 feeders and that's the reality. A West of Scotland feeder is needed but is there the will to create it?

[theProdigy]

Fleet Star said they would not be renewing their memberships and as a result, I'd reckon that suggests the club will now fold!

Annan Athletic and Stranraer reserves as well at Bonnyton Thistle were all accepted to the league and, with Edusport Academy being promoted, that means next season's league will be 16 teams!

[tamthebam]

no doubt our floodlight denying chums would claim Bonnyton want to be a big fish in a small point rather than a small fish in the Ayrshire Juniors cesspit.... 

[Afrojim]

12 hours ago, info said:

Sadly don't think Flee Star are even thinking about a return. Stranraer and Annan South teams and will be welcome.Bonnytown with all the good will in the world are planning great things but to allow them in would be to continue to denigrate the SOS to being an easy?? and lazy entry to the pyramid.

If the west of scotland clubs want to join in then welcome but let them put in the hard work South of Scotland(and East) over decades and form a West of Scotland branch of the pyramid and not cuckoo the SOS league .

 

8 hours ago, stanley said:

It's the fault of the system (and the organisations) that there is no senior west league; not the fault of individual clubs.  Either they join the South of Scotland League or they don't join the seniors at all.  They can't create a senior league on their own.

 

4 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

The Lowland has 2 feeders and that's the reality. A West of Scotland feeder is needed but is there the will to create it?

 

The SFA will never really be pushed on this issue at all I feel. At the moment west junior clubs are simply being bypassed by clubs stepping straight into senior level from amateur level, East Kilbride, Cumbernauld Colts, BSC Glasgow and now Bonnyton, these clubs know what the licensing criteria are and are willing to meet it and fit into the current system. At the moment the East of Scotland league covers Fife right down to the Borders, the SFA knows that these clubs have the ability to travel larger distances and therefore are likely capable of stepping up to the Lowland League/SPFL without much bother. Expansion of the SOS league beyond just Dumfries & Galloway to cover a far bigger geographical area is the most likely solution to the problem, effectively it would become a south-west Scotland league at tier 6. To have three separate feeder leagues into the Lowland League, East/West/South, could be problematic as teams in the latter two leagues have not proven that they can play in a wider geographic area than they currently do. We saw this issue with Threave Rovers when they were in the Lowland League and (allegedly) a couple of other SOS teams have done what they can to avoid promotion to the LL. 

I would favour the notion of the two current feeder leagues covering these geographic locations...

South of Scotland League - Dumfries & Galloway, South Ayrshire, East Ayrshire, North Ayrshire, Glasgow City, North Lanarkshire, South Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, East Dunbartonshire, East Renfrewshire, West Dunbartonshire, Inverclyde & The southern part of Argyll & Bute.

East of Scotland League - Edinburgh, Fife, East Lothian, West Lothian, Midlothian, Falkirk, Scottish Borders, Stirling, Clackmannanshire and the southern part of Perth & Kinross (The bit below the Tay). 

The distance between the bottom of the Scottish Borders council area & the top of Fife is roughly the same as the distance between the bottom of Dumfries and Galloway & the bottom part of Argyll and Bute give or take a few miles. It would seem to me that this would be the most logical solution for tier 6 of the pyramid. By all means there should be a more regional/local league set-up further down the pyramid, but clubs at tier 6 need to prove that they can afford to travel larger distances before stepping up to tier 5 or finding themselves in a position where they are trying to avoid promotion. It seems like this change is inevitable anyway, how long until other clubs from further afield, be they amateur or junior, decide to get a license and find themselves being placed in the SOS League anyway? Clydebank have already been mentioned in other threads and what if a well run community club in say Helensburgh or Dunoon decided to get licensed? Both towns are based south of the Tay and in the west of Scotland, they would likely have to go through SOS league to get to the Lowland League/SPFL.

The SFA have detailed the licensing requirements without clarifying what geographical area each feeder league specifically covers. If the SFA were to provide such clarity then they will have created a level playing field in which all individual clubs can make the decision to get licensed (or not) fully aware of the circumstances they will be entering into. 

[cmontheloknow]

Infrastructure is something that cannot be ignored though. Obviously the SoS and Eos have changed in recent years, with Stirling Uni, Annan, Threave, Dalbeattie and Gretna 2008 all coming in to the latter from outwith the traditional (i.e. look at its membership from 1920s onward) catchment, and the SoS has had the odd one pop up - Edusport came in playing in Hamilton for example, though that did of course alter to Galabank. However I'm regularly down in the SW of the country and sometimes watch games. These are not roads you can travel quickly nor are these clubs that with any sanity can you send to play in the Glasgow region on a semi regular basis. The bottom line is that at both tier 5 and tier 6, you are not talking about the clubs best suited to playing at that level from the entire stock of semi pro outfits.

To make an analogy, does a football manager put out a team to fit his system or a pick a system to fit his team? In league structure terms, do we use a league system that fits the clubs or do we find clubs that fit a league system? I don't think you can mix and match on this. What we have now for 2017-18, as far as I can see, is one club playing at tier 6 that is willing to accept promotion to Tier 5 (Preston Athletic) with a few others one the periphery i.e. Saints. The LL also contains I'd say at least 8 clubs that would be a better fit for Tier 6. Currently the structure does not fit the clubs. Altering the structure further without changing the clubs is unlikely to suceed.

[HibeeJibee]

Kilmarnock's the far side of the Galloway Hills, not the other side of the planet . How much strain is going to be put on club finances by 1 trip round the A77 or up the A76?

Anyway it's hardly unknown territory for SOSL: Girvan, EK, Edusport (at Hamilton) all been elected at similar / further distances in recent years. At the end of the day there are 2 feeders to LL and having chosen to affiliate the SOSL is going to have to take in clubs from Ayrshire & Strathclyde and the EOSL from Fife & Stirlingshire - unless or until the Juniors come aboard. It's not an easy or lazy entry into the pyramid - it's the only entry.

Some will see reserve XIs as more controversial than Bonnyton but that's got long tradition in SOSL.


Sad about Fleet.


Could be some season though with 30 league games plus South Challenge, Southern Counties, Scottish/Alternate, League, Potts, Tweedie, potentially Haig Gordon and Cree Lodge cups, South & East Cup-Winners' Shield, playoff!

Maximum 68 games?

[neily1690]

Good addittions to league to make it stronger, correct me if im wrong when i played up in ayrshire am sure bonnyton were a feeder club to killie, stranraer coming back in will maybe take few youngers ones from wigtown creetown newton

[Clayhole Blue]

Bonnyton have been around for a long time - I know Stranraer have signed from them in the not too distant past.

[info]

Still think South are going down a wrong path but kilmarnock is not extreme.Just hope it is not the thin edge of the wedge. Re neily Wilson Blain Fisher and Henry will be pleased to be classed as youngsters!

However Creetown and Wigtown could be hit.

[Mattmc]

Be interesting to see what kind of team Stranraer go with, says in an official statement that they will still have a team in the under 20's league. The groundsman will have his work cut out.

[neily1690]

Haha info although they boys are still young pups a was meaning likes of the whyte boy he was best player on park v us last week, aye matthew hope its a dry winter

[Afrojim]

SOSL clubs must have logically concluded that when they became an affiliate league placed at tier 6 on the pyramid that eventually they would have to accept clubs from outside of Dumfries & Galloway. We know that the Lowland region covers everywhere south of the Tay, there is an East of Scotland league to accommodate clubs based south-east of the Tay and everyone was roughly aware of the area that the EOSL would cover. Logically then the clubs in the SOSL must have been aware that any newly licensed club based in the south-west would be joining their league. 

These are not unreasonable distances that senior clubs at tier 6 are being expected to cover anyway, Tweedmouth to north Fife is 116 miles. If a club in the north of Fife decided to turn senior then the clubs in the EOSL would simply have to adjust and deal with it. Wigtown to Helensburgh (as an example) is 113 miles. Oban Saints play in the amateur SAFL Premier league, apart from Campbeltown, all of the clubs they play against are based in the central belt roughly between 90-120 miles away. If an amateur club based in Argyll & Bute can cover such distances numerous times a season then why would the SFA not expect that senior clubs at tier 6 should be able to do the same?

In England there is a South West Peninsula League at tier 10 of their pyramid system. It is restricted to clubs from Cornwall and Devon due to travelling costs. The English FA didn't shoehorn it into their structure at tier 6 to accommodate those teams or to stop other clubs at tier 6 from having to travel to Cornwall/Devon in the event that any Cornish/Devonian clubs made it to that level. If those clubs wish to play at a higher level then they have to cover greater distances. Similarly, the SFA can't be expected to shoehorn new leagues into the Lowland pyramid structure to appease and accommodate clubs - be they the west region juniors or those in the SOSL. The idea of having a localised west senior league and a local SOSL placed together at tier 6 - alongside an EOSL that covers a far greater geographical area doesn't really make any sense. The SFA, either by default or design, have actually got the Lowland Region structure pretty spot on. Clubs know the licensing criteria and they know which league they are likely going to be placed in should they obtain a license. I don't really see what else the SFA can do in this regard. 

[cmontheloknow]

38 minutes ago, Afrojim said:

SOSL clubs must have logically concluded that when they became an affiliate league placed at tier 6 on the pyramid that eventually they would have to accept clubs from outside of Dumfries & Galloway. We know that the Lowland region covers everywhere south of the Tay, there is an East of Scotland league to accommodate clubs based south-east of the Tay and everyone was roughly aware of the area that the EOSL would cover. Logically then the clubs in the SOSL must have been aware that any newly licensed club based in the south-west would be joining their league. 

These are not unreasonable distances that senior clubs at tier 6 are being expected to cover anyway, Tweedmouth to north Fife is 116 miles. If a club in the north of Fife decided to turn senior then the clubs in the EOSL would simply have to adjust and deal with it. Wigtown to Helensburgh (as an example) is 113 miles. Oban Saints play in the amateur SAFL Premier league, apart from Campbeltown, all of the clubs they play against are based in the central belt roughly between 90-120 miles away. If an amateur club based in Argyll & Bute can cover such distances numerous times a season then why would the SFA not expect that senior clubs at tier 6 should be able to do the same?

In England there is a South West Peninsula League at tier 10 of their pyramid system. It is restricted to clubs from Cornwall and Devon due to travelling costs. The English FA didn't shoehorn it into their structure at tier 6 to accommodate those teams or to stop other clubs at tier 6 from having to travel to Cornwall/Devon in the event that any Cornish/Devonian clubs made it to that level. If those clubs wish to play at a higher level then they have to cover greater distances. Similarly, the SFA can't be expected to shoehorn new leagues into the Lowland pyramid structure to appease and accommodate clubs - be they the west region juniors or those in the SOSL. The idea of having a localised west senior league and a local SOSL placed together at tier 6 - alongside an EOSL that covers a far greater geographical area doesn't really make any sense. The SFA, either by default or design, have actually got the Lowland Region structure pretty spot on. Clubs know the licensing criteria and they know which league they are likely going to be placed in should they obtain a license. I don't really see what else the SFA can do in this regard. 

Amateur players pay to play - my local club has players paying £400 a season each. that is not necessariliy the case in Tier 6.

[Marshmallo]

If Annan B are entering does that mean Edusport are moving location again? Pitch will be in use for both Annan teams every week.

[theProdigy]

If Annan B are entering does that mean Edusport are moving location again? Pitch will be in use for both Annan teams every week.

Annan B will be playing a lot of games on Friday nights! The first team will be first priority and Edu second with the B team being third! Games can't be played on Sundays as well as a result of the youth teams! Going to be interesting how Richard Osbourne works that one

[theProdigy]

SOSL clubs must have logically concluded that when they became an affiliate league placed at tier 6 on the pyramid that eventually they would have to accept clubs from outside of Dumfries & Galloway. We know that the Lowland region covers everywhere south of the Tay, there is an East of Scotland league to accommodate clubs based south-east of the Tay and everyone was roughly aware of the area that the EOSL would cover. Logically then the clubs in the SOSL must have been aware that any newly licensed club based in the south-west would be joining their league. 
These are not unreasonable distances that senior clubs at tier 6 are being expected to cover anyway, Tweedmouth to north Fife is 116 miles. If a club in the north of Fife decided to turn senior then the clubs in the EOSL would simply have to adjust and deal with it. Wigtown to Helensburgh (as an example) is 113 miles. Oban Saints play in the amateur SAFL Premier league, apart from Campbeltown, all of the clubs they play against are based in the central belt roughly between 90-120 miles away. If an amateur club based in Argyll & Bute can cover such distances numerous times a season then why would the SFA not expect that senior clubs at tier 6 should be able to do the same?
In England there is a South West Peninsula League at tier 10 of their pyramid system. It is restricted to clubs from Cornwall and Devon due to travelling costs. The English FA didn't shoehorn it into their structure at tier 6 to accommodate those teams or to stop other clubs at tier 6 from having to travel to Cornwall/Devon in the event that any Cornish/Devonian clubs made it to that level. If those clubs wish to play at a higher level then they have to cover greater distances. Similarly, the SFA can't be expected to shoehorn new leagues into the Lowland pyramid structure to appease and accommodate clubs - be they the west region juniors or those in the SOSL. The idea of having a localised west senior league and a local SOSL placed together at tier 6 - alongside an EOSL that covers a far greater geographical area doesn't really make any sense. The SFA, either by default or design, have actually got the Lowland Region structure pretty spot on. Clubs know the licensing criteria and they know which league they are likely going to be placed in should they obtain a license. I don't really see what else the SFA can do in this regard. 

You mentioned a big word in your analogy about teams from Cornwall/Devon... Wish... "If those clubs wish to play at a higher level" was exactly what you had said!

Now the thing with England is that you can actually reject promotion... You must make that case clear to the FA but I do believe promotion between regional leagues is not mandatory... So for example, and following on from your example used, if a team wins Division One of the South West Peninsula League then they must go to the Premier Division of the same League! However, if they were to win the Premier Division of the South West Peninsula League then they would not be forced to be promoted to the Western Football League (tier 9)... They would have to apply regarding this but it is not actually mandatory!

Now, in the South and East it is mandatory to be promoted to the Lowland League, meaning a massive funding change and possibly players being unwilling/unable to commit to the additional travelling! Mandatory is a big difference from a want! If the teams can make it work and want to go up then they can and will, but you cannot expect teams who are unwilling/unable to accept promotion to have to just go up anyway... This is how clubs go bankrupt!