CapitalDiamond Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 My name is Colin Telford, I am a solicitor by profession and an Airdrieonians supporter (unlikely to be popular with many of you I know!). I am looking for your help for on a matter which I think potentially has a broad application to Scottish Football and our clubs. As you may be aware from previous press coverage, Airdrieonians Football Club has received correspondence with the office of the Procurator Fiscal to the Lord Lyon King of Arms and ultimately the club has been required to give an undertaking that it will cease using the club badge from 1 September 2015. This has nothing to do with the change from Airdrie United to Airdrieonians. A trademark application was made in respect of the badge which brought it to the attention of the Lord Lyon's Procurator Fiscal. The position of the Lord Lyon's office is that they do not take action unless a matter is brought to their attention. However, as Formartine United will testify, an anonymous tip-off (in that instance presumed to be from a jealous rival) is sufficient to lead t a prosecution. Airdrie's badge has been deemed to be "an heraldic device". What constitutes such a device is ultimately a matter for the Lord Lyon's office however in correspondence it has been confirmed the use of a simple shield would be sufficient. To further confuse matters, a shield does not require to be shield shaped, it can be square, circular, diamond, club, spade or heart shaped etc. You cannot use an heraldic device unless it is registered with the Lord Lyon's Office. The cost to register a basic shield is £2,500. For Airdrieonians, our rooster is taken to be a "crest" in heraldic terminology. That would cost an additional £800. The rooster would therefore be our record signing post the Bosman ruling!!!!!!! Some clubs in Scotland do have their badges registered with the Lord Lyon's office, others have badges which would not be considered as non heraldic (essentially they are corporate logos) but a large number of the badges are unregistered heraldic devices. A bigger problem for Airdrie is that you cannot have letters within the shield part of a badge if you are to register it. Heraldry is all about describing who someone is without using letters or numbers and therefore any device containing letters would not be admitted to the register. I am told the Lord Lyon's office that is "Bad Heraldry"... perish the thought. The best case scenario for Airdrieonians would be to apply to register an amended version of the badge at a cost of £3,300 and to have the stadium look like we the club has been through some sort of failed corporate rebranding exercise. Other clubs would be even less lucky. Certain symbols such as crowns (Hibernian's old badge), Lion Rampants (Dundee United's and Ranger's old badges) or Saltires (Formartine's old badge) cannot be used and so if you have those within the shield part of your badge, it is extremely unlikely that your badge could be registered an you would have to cease using it. Prosecution by the Lord Lyon's Procurator Fiscal pay allow for a fine of £100 per day and a visit from the "Dingers Doon" who are entitled to ding doon any unlicensed heraldry where it appears. The Lord Lyon's PF rarely prosecutes but arguably that is because when faced with the decision of whether to go to the Lyon Court, the prospects of success are almost non existent. It is likely that a period of time will be allowed in order to let a club cease using its badge (in Airdrie's case this was about a year). If a prosecution was to be brought, it would be under the 1592 Act Lord Lyon Act of the old Scottish Parliament. I would encourage everyone to have a go at reading that act as a test of your old Scots ability http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1592/29/paragraph/p1. I'm paraphrasing here and translating into modern English, but the act actually speaks of the common sort of people not worthy by the law ..... The Airdrieonians Supporters Trust believes that it is not in the public interest for such prosecutions to be brought. In the case of Airdrionians, it is a further expense for a club struggling to break even and it removes one of the assets which we believe we have available to us to rebuild links between the club and the community. While we could raise the £3,300 needed, we would rather use our funds on other incentives (e.g. last year we paid £9,000 to the club in order to allow us to hand out free season tickets to kids). I submitted a petition to the Scottish Parliament, but that was rejected. The Lord Lyon's role (despite applying solely to Scotland) is partly reserved to Westminster; I understand that this is connected to the Crown's ability to grant honours. The Scottish Parliament's view is that the required change in the law can only be made by Westminster. I appreciate that there are bigger problems in the world than football badges, but we wish to establish that this is something that the public cares about (I be confident that more people like football than heraldry). I would also submit that there is no need for heraldry to be applied to companies. These devices could be dealt with under the trade mark regime which applies and heraldry could be reserved to individuals, geographical locations and cases of clear bad faith. I also appreciate that you may not particularly like Airdrieonians. Some of you will point to events this weekend as evidence of why you don't. That incident was of course inexcusable, but I would point you in the direction of the Airdrieonians Supporters' Trust and ask you to consider the good work which is going on at the club https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fs38gpA3ks Without a change in the law, the badges of many football clubs in Scotland are essentially sitting ducks. Even if your club own club's badge is safe, there will be a school, rugby club, bowling club etc near you which could be affected. Together with Supporters Direct, we are trying to show that evidence that this is an issue which people (particularly football supporters) care about. A change.org petition has been set up and we would ask that you sign that and spread the word on message boards, social media and any other way you can in order to protect football badges. For the petition please see https://www.change.org/p/scottish-parliament-recognise-and-protect-the-community-value-of-club-badges?just_created=true And for further details on our campaign please see www.savethebadge,co.uk If you feel that you might be able to assist with our campaign, please get in touch. Any help would be appreciated with this. We are particularly keen to try an obtain UK press coverage in order to try an gain support from the wider football community. Many thanks <> Colin <> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzdrk Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 New badge for Airdrie thread for this pish Edit: signed Have you approached the local candidates for MP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitalDiamond Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Yes, Unlikely to be a big vote winner though. I was hoping that you might post "this pish" on each of the forums and join Supporters Direct in championing it given that teams in every division could be affected Granted St Mirren are safe after removing your Castellation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shandon Par Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 You should follow the example of more progressive parts of Europe and deal with the matter by means of the guillotine. Failing that, I think that it's only those within the legal profession who have seemed overly worried by this. Civil disobedience has to be the method to deal with this - is any court or police service in the land really going to be interested in enforcing 500 year old laws like this? Ignore these cretins and wear your badge with pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitalDiamond Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 I will continue to do so, but given that Mohammed Al Fayed and Donald Trump lost their battles with the Lyon Court, I don't really fancy our chances! I trust you've signed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shandon Par Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I'd be happy to display an Airdrieonians badge on my shop front along with some information about the matter if you think it would help? Of course I've signed - I can't see how that law serves anyone other than Lord Lyon and as such it should have no place in today's society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greendot Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 In the same week Airdrie fans invade Forfar's pitch and have a go at Rab Douglas, an Airdrie fan / solicitor appears on Pie and Bovril. You couldn't make this up M'lud (closest icon to a wig i could find) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitalDiamond Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Thank you kind sir. Where's your shop? I'm in Edinburgh and can come round with our poster based around the cartoon above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer (Raconteur) Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I will continue to do so, but given that Mohammed Al Fayed and Donald Trump lost their battles with the Lyon Court, I don't really fancy our chances! I trust you've signed? What now? I'm starting to like the cut of this c**t's jib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 an Airdrieonians supporter (unlikely to be popular with many of you I know!). I also appreciate that you may not particularly like Airdrieonians. No need to apologise for your team chap. Being craven tends not to go down too well. Besides, you're under 35, went to Airdrie Academy and can still use the apostrophe. For that alone I shall happily sign your petition. BTW the Airdrie-haters are out grooming their Unicorns. They'll be back shortly to feed the centaurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipsy Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Does all this mean that every school, sports club and business in Scotland who has an 'heraldic' badge which contravenes the rules is in trouble? That's an awful lot of people. Surely something can be done. Also, as rightly pointed out, both Dundee United and the SNP had to get rid of the red Lion Rampant. Why are Rangers still allowed to use it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 In the same week Airdrie fans invade Forfar's pitch and have a go at Rab Douglas, an Airdrie fan / solicitor appears on Pie and Bovril. You couldn't make this up M'lud (closest icon to a wig i could find) That's the P&B we all know and love, Linking wee fannies who shat it when faced with a square go from a Forfar goalie with a challenge to a 16th century Heraldic act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitalDiamond Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Dipsy you are correct. If you want to use a shield then you should be paying at least £2,500 to the Lord Lyon's office. If fairness, for that they will provide you with it hand painted on calf skin although if your existing shield has letters, a saltire or a lion rampant they won't let you register it. Also only about 7 colours you can use. The "new" Rangers and Dundee United badges are not seemed to be heraldic. I assume that a busy background is enough to placate the Lord Lyon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Whilst the law is about as ridiculous as it comes airdrie fans are getting ever so precious over a badge they have only recently started using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitalDiamond Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Your point is a valid one Parsforlife albeit snidely made. You're perfectly entitled to object to how we came back into the league following liquidation. It's actually irrelevant in terms of the action which is being taken though. I'd also hoped (perhaps naively), that other fans might like having the Airdrieonians name back. It's a part of the Scottish footballing landscape like Hamilton Academicals, Dunfermline Athletic, Greenock Morton, Burnt Island Shipyard, Whitehill Welfare, Civil Service Strollers. Football badges are an extension of that. Do we really want the majority of them at risk because of heraldic convention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB_Bino Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Signed, good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Your point is a valid one Parsforlife albeit snidely made. You're perfectly entitled to object to how we came back into the league following liquidation. It's actually irrelevant in terms of the action which is being taken though. I'd also hoped (perhaps naively), that other fans might like having the Airdrieonians name back. It's a part of the Scottish footballing landscape like Hamilton Academicals, Dunfermline Athletic, Greenock Morton, Burnt Island Shipyard, Whitehill Welfare, Civil Service Strollers. Football badges are an extension of that. Do we really want the majority of them at risk because of heraldic convention? As I said the law is absolutely ridiculous. Airdrieonians as a name means nothing to me you're airdrie united as far as I'm concerned and waiting a decade before using the 'we're the same club really' act is odd. Had you changed the badge to something the dead club hadn't used and found out now that this bizarre law prevents its use then I highly doubt there would have been such a reaction, a shrug of the shoulders and a re-design before moving on. Regardless I wish you the best of luck in getting Lyon telt with his law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panama Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 As a solicitor you should know that ignorance of the law is no excuse. You are asking for a law that has been in use for over 400 years to be overturned because somebody in your club didn't know the law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Problemo Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 As a solicitor you should know that ignorance of the law is no excuse. You are asking for a law that has been in use for over 400 years to be overturned because somebody in your club didn't know the law?I don't imagine many people knew of a 400 year old law. Of course it should be overturned, it's outdated and ridiculous.A law which has been in use in certain cases when they feel like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eednud Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Signed. This is the 21st century, not the time of fiefdoms, even though some clubs seem to be run that way. It is also a ridiculous waste of taxpayers money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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