LaddingtonBear Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Right, I don't know about anyone else but I am fed up with not being able to get beer after 10pm in shops and pubs closing at midnight. Started this petition to change it. Why are Scots deemed more immature than the rest of the UK? The worst part is that Holyrood made this law... Anyone else pissed off by this? Full argument below... https://www.change.org/p/scottish-parliament-extend-the-hours-of-alcohol-licenses-in-pubs-bars-and-off-license-shops-in-scotland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Right, I don't know about anyone else but I am fed up with not being able to get beer after 10pm in shops and pubs closing at midnight. Started this petition to change it. Why are Scots deemed more immature than the rest of the UK? The worst part is that Holyrood made this law... Anyone else pissed off by this law? https://www.change.org/p/scottish-parliament-extend-the-hours-of-alcohol-licenses-in-pubs-bars-and-off-license-shops-in-scotland ^oh dear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaddingtonBear Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Oh also all this...The current laws regarding the sale and purchase of alcohol in Scotland are illogical and fail to address the five key aims laid out by the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005. A reduction in the number of hours that an off-licence, pub or bar possess has an adverse effect on society because it encourages an immature relationship with alcohol and a culture of binge drinking. I would like to state from the very start that I am not anti-nightclubs, they merely make a good and obvious point of comparison to highlight the absurdities of the licensing laws within Scotland. “Aim 1 Preventing crime and disorder” & “Aim 2: Securing public safety” The current laws contribute to alcohol related crime and disorder. By allowing nightclubs to have later opening times than pubs people are more likely to frequent nightclubs in which the vast majority of alcohol related crimes are committed. While no official statistics exist that compare crime rates at pubs and nightclubs a serving member of Police Scotland, who wished to remain anonymous, was asked directly: “Which have more alcohol related crime; pubs or clubs?” he responded as follows: “In my own opinion clubs would be far and away the worst for alcohol related crime. I have lifted probably ten times more people for assault, refusing to leave a licensed premises, Breach of the Peace etc. at nightclubs than I have at Pubs.” A pub promotes conversation, a relaxed atmosphere and fewer people will have “pre-drinks” before visiting a pub. A study from 2004 by the Home Office found that certain factors can lead to aggressive behaviour in drunk people and that these conditions are; “…poor ventilation, high noise levels, smoky atmospheres, inconvenient bar access, inadequate seating and overcrowding.”. This list sounds almost like a dictionary definition of a nightclub and yet the current law allows these premises to stay open longer than pubs despite the government knowing these conditions can lead to violent behaviour. The later opening times which clubs possess create the conditions of overcrowding that lead to violence. If pubs and clubs were available to patrons until the same time it would reduce the likelihood of overcrowding in both types of venue, this would lead to less frustrated and happier patrons. Another reason pubs should have the same licenced hours as nightclubs is that the aims of people going to clubs and pubs are entirely different. This means that patrons who would rather stay in a pub until 3am must go to a nightclub if they wish to continue their night and socialise with their friends. The fact that there are plenty of people in Nightclubs who don’t really want to be there causes friction which results in a greater chance of animosity and violence. The 10pm limit for off-licence sales seems to be even more illogical than the limit for pubs. Rather than allowing people to drink in the comfort of their own homes and in private the law seems to be encouraging people to drink in large numbers and in public. It should be self-evident that more people drinking alcohol in specific and confined locations will lead to greater violence and crime. The current law has failed to create a diverse culture of drinking and has dissuaded people from drinking in private, which, inevitably leads to more crime. There is no doubt that there is less violent crime within and outside pubs as opposed to clubs, this is evident to anyone who has walked down any city centre at two or three o’clock in the morning. If the aim is to gather hundreds of drunk people into a confined area and watch them assault each other then the Scottish Government has absolutely achieved this goal. The current situation also seems to discriminate against older people by shutting venues that they are more likely to frequent at an earlier time. While there will be those who say that this is irrelevant because older people have the same opportunity to go to clubs, in practice the last time I was in a nightclub I didn’t see anyone who looked as if they were collecting their pension. If pubs were open until the same time there would be fewer people going to clubs because many patrons prefer the atmosphere of pubs and only move to clubs to continue their night. Casinos are perhaps the oddest of the many bizarre situations thrown up by the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005. You can go into a casino at midday and drink constantly until 6am the following day and it would be absolutely legal. The Casinos in my city are nothing more than bars that are open at all hours, I have witnessed very little gambling and a lot of responsible drinking until the early hours of the morning. People do drink a lot in casinos but very few become aggressive in these establishments, it comes down to environment again. The Casinos have excellent bouncers on the door who can determine if someone has had too much to drink, they also have quiet music and plenty of seating. All of this adds up to a big difference which leaves the patrons happier and less likely to become violent. You don’t have to try to imagine a world in which all bars and pubs have late licensing because it already happens in Casinos and, this may come as a shock to the Scottish Government, it works just fine. Aim 3: Preventing public nuisance This petition is not trying to roll out a 3am license for every pub in the country and local authorities should still determine which pubs and areas are appropriate for extended licenses. At the moment however we have the situation in which one of my local pubs closes at midnight but the club above it remains open for another 3 hours. If the location is suitable for fast drinking, loud music and dancing until 3am it is equally suitable for slow drinking, quiet music and sitting until 3am. In non-residential areas there should be no difference in licensing between these two establishments. It has been demonstrated time and again that restrictions on alcohol do not achieve the desired results for society. In extreme cases this has been shown by the abject failure of prohibition in America and closer to home the ban on alcohol on ScotRail trains after 9pm has almost doubled crime. “In the 12 months since the ban was introduced 240 alcohol-related crimes were recorded after 9pm, compared with 129 the previous year, according to British Transport Police (BTP).”. In principal I am very much in favour of the ban of alcohol on trains after 9pm but it illustrates the fact that restrictions don’t work. The reason for the failure of the policy is that people will “pre-drink” in excess and quickly before getting on the train because they know that they can’t drink in their own time on the train. Simply put the greater the restrictions placed on alcohol the greater the public nuisance becomes. Aim 4: Protecting and improving public health The Scottish Government will undoubtedly respond by saying that the law regarding pub licences and off-licences is in place to restrict sales in order to limit intake and improve public health. In reality the people who abuse alcohol will merely have become more organised and the rest of the population who treat alcohol with the responsibility it deserves are punished for sloppy time keeping. There is also a trend of bulk buying alcohol caused by the 10pm limit, people “panic buy” alcohol in much larger quantities than they previously would have before the 10pm law. This is believed to be caused by individuals thinking it’s better to have it and not need it than want it and not have it. If the Scottish Government truly wants to cut the amount of alcohol being consumed then allowing the unfettered use of pubs and off-licences would seem to be the logical solution. Having been a barman in both pubs and clubs I can say with absolute certainty that it is far easier to identify when someone has had too much to drink in a pub. The conditions are quieter in pubs allowing the staff to recognise the slurring of words or aggression, the bar is less rushed giving the staff greater time with each patron and the lighting is better meaning the staff are more likely to notice, from a distance, that a person has had too much to drink. This logic holds true in shops as well. The quality of alcohol being purchased is also a major factor in the amount and rate of alcohol being consumed in clubs and pubs. If someone purchases a £1 shot of vodka they won’t savour or enjoy it they will drink it as quickly as possible. If they have purchased a good quality beer or a glass of wine, for £3 or more, they will slow their rate of dinking and savour their purchase. Pubs tend to have a wider range of options for drinks and higher quality options, nightclubs are more likely to encourage a culture of cheap alcohol, drunk quickly. The Scottish Government is correct when they say that Scots have a negative drinking culture and of course this directly impacts on the health of the general public. Surely then the answer is to foster an appreciation and enjoyment of alcohol, not restrict access so that it gains a taboo image that appeals to young people. The last bit of evidence that we can consider is that since the Licensing Act 2003 (introducing 24 hour licences in England and Wales) there has been no rise in alcohol related crime and no rise in alcohol consumption. In fact all consumption of alcohol has dropped the research below was conducted by the “Health & Social Care Information Centre”. Drinking behaviour among adults and children · Between 2005 and 2012 the proportion of men who drank alcohol in the week before being interviewed fell from 72 per cent to 64 per cent, and the proportion of women fell from 57 per cent to 52 per cent in Great Britain. · Among adults who had drunk alcohol in the last week, 55 per cent of men and 53 per cent of women drank more than the recommended daily amounts, including 31 per cent of men and 24 per cent of women who drank more than twice the recommended amounts in 2012. · In real terms, between 2009 and 2012 household spending on alcoholic drinks in the UK increased by 1.3 per cent, whilst that bought for consumption outside the home fell by 9.8 per cent. · In 2012, 43 per cent of school pupils (aged 11-15) said that they had drunk alcohol at least once. This continues the downward trend since 2003, when 61 per cent of pupils had drunk alcohol. Aim 5: Protecting children from harm The objectives set out in the Scottish Licensing Act 2005 were not revolutionary, in short the law states that people under of age of 18 must not be sold alcohol. A stricter approach to pubs and shops in terms of the hours during which they are allowed to sell alcohol simply does not affect the issue of underage drinking. A survey of 5205 British youngsters (aged 10-15) conducted by “Alcohol Concern” found that 93% of those who try to buy alcohol have no difficulty being served alcohol in pubs and clubs, this figure drops to 84% in shops. Off-licence premises suffered the greatest reduction of licence hours under the Scottish Licensing Act 2005 and these shops were the least likely to sell alcohol to underage people, it is clearly false to claim that the new laws go further to protect children. Unfortunately, yet again, it has proved impossible to find statistics that make a distinction between pubs and nightclubs. It is reasonable to assume, however, that nightclubs are the hardest premises to police. With so many people trying to enter these establishments after pubs close it is inevitable that some underage people slip through the net. In poor visibility and with large queues forming at the bar checks will be less strict then at a pub. Despite all of the arguments presented the most important thing to keep in mind is that this law was created soon after the birth of the Scottish Parliament and will go down in history as an error of judgement. As a country I would like to think that we have matured and that the Scottish Government can recognise the mistakes of the past and correct them. We had one of the greatest demonstrations of democracy during the Independence Referendum and the Scottish Government trusted the population to vote on a decision that would have fundamentally changed everything. If the population is deemed wise and mature enough to enter into a debate of that complexity I believe they should also be deemed wise and mature enough to go down to the shops at 10:02pm and pick up a bottle of beer… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 ^^^ word salad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 TL/DR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaddingtonBear Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 ^^^ word salad Palatable, the right choice and good for you? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Palatable, the right choice and good for you? Cheers. ^^^ word salad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Wisbit = Laddington Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 If you're not going to contribute properly to the discussion then kindly f**k off. Or you will be reported for trying to derail the thread. Have a nice day now. ^^^ scrambling for relevance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaddingtonBear Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Wisbit = Laddington Bear Nope, just found this forum today. Seemed like the most lively Scottish Politics Forum online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiG Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 'Laddington Bear'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Rational Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Can't buy drink after 10? Should have been organised and got it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamamafegan Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 LaddingtonBear, what a name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaddingtonBear Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Can't buy drink after 10? Should have been organised and got it before. Not really the point. I don't understand who the Scottish Government thinks they are protecting. An alcoholic will never forget the 10pm limit and will always remember and someone who want's a beer after finishing a late shift can't get one (I often finish work after 10pm). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Not really the point. I don't understand who the Scottish Government thinks they are protecting. An alcoholic will never forget the 10pm limit and will always remember and someone who want's a beer after finishing a late shift can't get one (I often finish work after 10pm). Go to the pub then you fucking cheapskate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 The SNP is quite proud of its puritan alcohol policy and that's not going to change any time soon. Ensuring that they don't pass horrendous classist shit like minimum pricing is the short-term priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaddingtonBear Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 The SNP is quite proud of its puritan alcohol policy and that's not going to change any time soon. Ensuring that they don't pass horrendous classist shit like minimum pricing is the short-term priority. Agreed, but we should still let them know if we don't like the current laws. Also If you dissent about what they've already done it will make it harder for them to implement more legislation (like minimum pricing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonksy+HisChristianParade Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Fully agree, terrible law. Fellow Laddington Bears and I should be able to buy booze whenever and wherever we please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Agreed, but we should still let them know if we don't like the current laws. There are effective ways of doing this, and ineffective ways of doing this. An online petition has been proven by science to be literally the least effective way to accomplish anything in the history of mankind. Hand-write a letter to your shiny new SNP MP (and MSP(s) for good measure) after the GE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaldo Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Next they'll be reducing the drink-driving limit. Fucking socialist b*****ds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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