The Great Big Kilmarnock Thread

[deadasdillinger]

[Andy_K_97]

Absolutely cracking news about Lafferty staying. A very positive sign of things to come, hopefully.

[kilMARKnock]

Now that GTF day has been announced, thought this was due a bump. 

Thank f**k, it wasn't the "days out" season I was looking forward to but job done thanks to the board and McInness. 

Anyhoo, back to the twisted sisters and the shite they bring to town. Happy days indeed. 

League reconstruction anyone.....?

[killiekranky]

17 hours ago, kilMARKnock said:

Now that GTF day has been announced, thought this was due a bump. 

Thank f**k, it wasn't the "days out" season I was looking forward to but job done thanks to the board and McInness. 

Anyhoo, back to the twisted sisters and the shite they bring to town. Happy days indeed. 

League reconstruction anyone.....?

Top league of 20, play each other twice.

RangersCeltic play a 2 legged made up ersecheek cup tournament to appease tv.

The rest of us get to tour Scotland, visiting new places, seeing new sights and occasionally  be surprised by a team we haven't played 5 times already this season.

 

[Otis Blue]

Just reading one of the BBC articles about tonight's final in Seville, and they mention a European tie (late 60s?) when Eintracht Frankfurt let slip a 4-0 lead to lose by 5-4 to Killie at Rugby Park with Ronnie Hamilton netting twice.

Wee Ronnie played for Queens towards the end of his career in the early 70s, and even then you could see he was quality. Remember him being a great header of the ball despite not being the tallest.  Also remember Ronnie scoring for Queens at RP in a Scottish Cup tie around 73, although we ultimately lost 2-1 to Killie (my first ever away game).

Mention of Ronnie brought back some great memories. Assume he was fondly remembered by Killie too.

[killiejim]

Just reading one of the BBC articles about tonight's final in Seville, and they mention a European tie (late 60s?) when Eintracht Frankfurt let slip a 4-0 lead to lose by 5-4 to Killie at Rugby Park with Ronnie Hamilton netting twice.
Wee Ronnie played for Queens towards the end of his career in the early 70s, and even then you could see he was quality. Remember him being a great header of the ball despite not being the tallest.  Also remember Ronnie scoring for Queens at RP in a Scottish Cup tie around 73, although we ultimately lost 2-1 to Killie (my first ever away game).
Mention of Ronnie brought back some great memories. Assume he was fondly remembered by Killie too.

Ronnie is certainly fondly remembered by older Killie fans like me. Part of the greatest team in our history and played in many of our greatest games. Was a bit on the light side for a striker and only 5'8" but had a return of 43 goals from 74 appearances. Made his final Killie appearance v St Johnstone on Christmas day 1965 and shortly afterwards was swapped for Gerry Queen of St. Mirren who presumably was considered to possess more of a physical presence than Ronnie. After St Mirren, Ronnie also played for QOS and Motherwell. He returned to Killie later as a club official and served on the board for many years.

[RandomGuy.]

18 hours ago, killiekranky said:

Top league of 20, play each other twice.

RangersCeltic play a 2 legged made up ersecheek cup tournament to appease tv.

The rest of us get to tour Scotland, visiting new places, seeing new sights and occasionally  be surprised by a team we haven't played 5 times already this season.

 

And the middle 10 clubs can enjoy an absolutely meaningless final 10 games because they're in a dead zone with nothing to play for, alongside the inevitably of around 24 clubs just constantly recycling the place in the top flight amongst themselves.

Great stuff.

Edited May 19, 2022 by RandomGuy.

[killiekranky]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

And the middle 10 clubs can enjoy an absolutely meaningless final 10 games because they're in a dead zone with nothing to play for, alongside the inevitably of around 24 clubs just constantly recycling the place in the top flight amongst themselves.

Great stuff.

As opposed to the current 9 team relegation dogfight every season ?

Allow teams to grow, introduce new talent and maybe play some entertaining football, by withdrawing the constant fear of relegation.

Current set up is just 10 teams waiting to play Rangers and Celtic, I'd rather see a football league.

[Otis Blue]

21 hours ago, killiekranky said:

Top league of 20, play each other twice.

RangersCeltic play a 2 legged made up ersecheek cup tournament to appease tv.

The rest of us get to tour Scotland, visiting new places, seeing new sights and occasionally  be surprised by a team we haven't played 5 times already this season.

 

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

And the middle 10 clubs can enjoy an absolutely meaningless final 10 games because they're in a dead zone with nothing to play for, alongside the inevitably of around 24 clubs just constantly recycling the place in the top flight amongst themselves.

Great stuff.

Unlike now where we have the inevitability of only around 12-14 clubs constantly recycling the place in the top flight amongst themselves ... I kinda like the idea of another extra 10 clubs having the possibility of occasional progression and introducing some much needed variety into our game.

I may be in the minority these days but these 10 team Diddy leagues bore the backside off me.  Everyone in Diddyland knows that the top league is a cartel purely designed to milk the OF pound via four home games with them per season, to provide satellite TV with four OF derbies per season, and to minimise the possibility of the select top league membership falling through the trapdoor and hence keeping the uber-diddy minnows in their place where they "should be".  Money talks ... as they say ...

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, killiekranky said:

Allow teams to grow, introduce new talent and maybe play some entertaining football, by withdrawing the constant fear of relegation.

Go look at Hibs side at the weekend. This absolute fairytale that having 10+ dead games a season will see every club pumping out multiple class youngsters while playing entertaining football is hilariously naive. You'd just have 10 games of friendly level football as senior players go through the motions.

If young players are good enough they generally get played, if they don't it's because of the manager who likely wouldn't play them regardless of the league set up.

Just now, Otis Blue said:

 

Unlike now where we have the inevitability of only around 12-14 clubs constantly recycling the place in the top flight amongst themselves

 It's more than that, and at least the others get some excitement. In a 20 team league a club like Arbroath would be spending years wedged to the bottom of a division playing dead games before finally being relegated. With a smaller league teams around 15-18 get some chance of promotion excitement rather than nothing.

[RandomGuy.]

6 minutes ago, Otis Blue said:

I may be in the minority these days but these 10 team Diddy leagues bore the backside off me.  Everyone in Diddyland knows that the top league is a cartel purely designed to milk the OF pound via four home games with them per season, to provide satellite TV with four OF derbies per season, and to minimise the possibility of the select top league membership falling through the trapdoor and hence keeping the uber-diddy minnows in their place where they "should be".  Money talks ... as they say ...

Yet I've never seen you on the League Two thread calling it a "cartel", despite making it far harder for teams to drop out and those below to progress.

Funny that.

[Otis Blue]

20 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Yet I've never seen you on the League Two thread calling it a "cartel", despite making it far harder for teams to drop out and those below to progress.

Funny that.

If by "League Two" you mean the second tier or Championship (stupid name), then you are correct as I haven't called it a cartel.  My recollection is that the 3 diddy leagues of 10 teams each were by-products necessitated to facilitate the creation of the top league cartel - the main driver for the four league structure we have now was the greed driven need of the bigger not-quite-so-diddy clubs.  No doubt the relegation/promotion feature of the 3 diddy leagues was put forward as a sop to the rest of the not-quite-so-diddy clubs - but it was simply a by-product of the top league creation and that was all about maximising revenue from the OF pound for the benefit of a select few.

The prospect of playing the same clubs 4, 5, 6 and even perhaps occasionally 7 times a season is just woeful.

[Otis Blue]

33 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Go look at Hibs side at the weekend. This absolute fairytale that having 10+ dead games a season will see every club pumping out multiple class youngsters while playing entertaining football is hilariously naive. You'd just have 10 games of friendly level football as senior players go through the motions.

If young players are good enough they generally get played, if they don't it's because of the manager who likely wouldn't play them regardless of the league set up.

 It's more than that, and at least the others get some excitement. In a 20 team league a club like Arbroath would be spending years wedged to the bottom of a division playing dead games before finally being relegated. With a smaller league teams around 15-18 get some chance of promotion excitement rather than nothing.

Obviously I don't get to watch Hibs much.  However, in a 10 team league where 20% of the league is in real danger of relegation, managers are very reluctant to give young talent opportunities (unless as you say a significantly talented lad shines through) - and can you blame them as inevitably their job is on the line (eg Ayr who have had three managers this season?).  This makes for a very risk-averse approach which is grim to watch - I've seen it over many seasons unfortunately.

So what if a team like Arbroath spent years wedged to the lower end of a larger top division - at least they would have had the prospect and opportunity to strive for and to realistically achieve football at that level.  The current set up pretty well precludes such events apart from rare exceptions.

[RandomGuy.]

16 minutes ago, Otis Blue said:

If by "League Two" you mean the second tier or Championship (stupid name), then you are correct as I haven't called it a cartel. 

By League Two I mean League Two, the only division in the SPFL without an automatic relegation spot as the teams in the bottom two tiers want to make it as hard as possible for Highland/Lowland League sides to break into the top 4 tiers and get increased prize money.

I take it that's acceptabl

9 minutes ago, Otis Blue said:

Obviously I don't get to watch Hibs much.  However, in a 10 team league where 20% of the league is in real danger of relegation, managers are very reluctant to give young talent opportunities.

Which is my point about Hibs. A meaningless game at home with a manager with nothing to prove and they never gave a single youth product a go, yet magically they'd start doing it because there's more teams in the league?

[Otis Blue]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

By League Two I mean League Two, the only division in the SPFL without an automatic relegation spot as the teams in the bottom two tiers want to make it as hard as possible for Highland/Lowland League sides to break into the top 4 tiers and get increased prize money.

I take it that's acceptabl

Which is my point about Hibs. A meaningless game at home with a manager with nothing to prove and they never gave a single youth product a go, yet magically they'd start doing it because there's more teams in the league?

Re League Two - OK, I mis-read you there.  Yes, fair point, there is a degree of protectionism in L2 also but you could argue that introduction of an automatic relegation spot from L2 might be more palatable within a larger L2.  Nevertheless, the current structure of the three lower leagues and their risk levels is a by-product which flowed from the creation of the top league cartel which was the original point of discussion.

Hibs - well is that down to the particular manager there?  I think my point remains about the significant element of risk in the smaller 10 team leagues and the effect that has on managers' approaches in those leagues.  Unfortunately I've been witnessing it for years.

I don't claim to have the perfect solution for the Scottish football structure.  All I know is that the leagues are as stale as hell and one of the main attractions for fans is the need to have some glimmer of hope at the start of each season - the ability to aspire to our top league is now reduced to only a very select few and I don't think that's healthy.

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, Otis Blue said:

one of the main attractions for fans is the need to have some glimmer of hope at the start of each season.

Which is why expanding the leagues so a chunk of them are stuck in some mid-table wilderness where literally nothing happens after December is a horrendous idea. Simply being in the top flight isn't hugely exciting if you're just treading water in the bottom half for years, I'm afraid, and no amount of youngsters being chucked at it in the final month will change that.

Challenging for a play off spot in the Championship would be far more exciting and enjoyable for teams than fighting relegation in the top flight.

The country doesn't have enough teams to expand the divisions IMO, not unless we truly start a pyramid system, but the teams in League One/Two blocked that.

[Otis Blue]

3 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Which is why expanding the leagues so a chunk of them are stuck in some mid-table wilderness where literally nothing happens after December is a horrendous idea. Simply being in the top flight isn't hugely exciting if you're just treading water in the bottom half for years, I'm afraid, and no amount of youngsters being chucked at it in the final month will change that.

Challenging for a play off spot in the Championship would be far more exciting and enjoyable for teams than fighting relegation in the top flight.

The country doesn't have enough teams to expand the divisions IMO, not unless we truly start a pyramid system, but the teams in League One/Two blocked that.

Is this not all about perspectives?  I can see how the landscape might look different from the view of a Saints fan whose team has occupied a berth in the top league for quite a few of the last few decades.  However, I'd suggest to you that the same landscape might appear a bit different viewed from the outside from fans of more uber-diddy clubs whose likelihood of ever entering the hallowed marble halls of the fabled land again is a mere pipe dream nowadays - unless of course the uber-diddy club can attract a significant sugar daddy a la Roy McGregor and his ilk (are Saints not also effectively bank-rolled by Geoff Brown ... not sure?).

Anyhow, I think I need to offer apologies to Killie fans here for polluting their thread with my uninvited musings!

[C4mmy31]

The new home kit 

 

[Sortmeout]

10 minutes ago, C4mmy31 said:

The new home kit 

 

Pending seeing the back of it I have to say I absolutely love it.

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, Otis Blue said:

 (are Saints not also effectively bank-rolled by Geoff Brown ... not sure?).

No, everything we earned we earned through smart decision making. 

My first decade watching Saints was almost entirely in the second tier so yeah, I've plenty of perspective about being in a lower tier. I got hooked watching our steady progression towards challenging for promotion and then finally clinching it, I doubt it would've happened if we'd been dossing about in 16th every season.