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Does Pyramid p/o mean end of SJFA ?


mick90
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But they don't have licences, and whist some are interested most aren't. We aren't going to have a change unless there becomes a situation where 30 or so lowland region clubs are licensed, and the highlands only has enough for 1 league. Then we may have a situation where clubs can make an argument over imbalance, without that there's nothing to demand a split in the lowlands.

This is true but perhaps more would feel comfortable about securing a licence and committing to a pyramid if the governing body were not so "anti" the whole concept. You have to remember that the SJFA was particularly negative in its view of the pyramid, is actively trying to establish an alternative and was resistant to the prospect of teams being able to move from a pyramid structure into the non pyramid structure. And the SJFA are completely hooked into the SFA. Tom Johnstone is on several Sfa boards I think.

In the face of all of that, I'd suggest that fear of the consequences of securing a licence is now causing some clubs to hold back on progress. It is easy for the existing senior non league teams - the lowland league is broadly a revamp of what they had. It is easy for completely new clubs who don't have any need to concern themselves overly with managing their current members, history,financial impacts etc. Much, much more difficult for a club like Auchinleck to throw it's current financial model on the fire, lose all contact with Ayrshire non league football and take the risk that the lowland league will deliver a comparable challenge to what they have.

I'm a huge pyramid fan and I really believe licenced junior teams would drive up standards but licencing applies only at that top level of the non league pyramid. I still suggest that all of these unlicensed but progressive clubs being brought under one roof would make the depth of each pyramid look massively skewed.

And neither the SFA nor the SJFA seem keen to talk about the subject and help junior clubs to embrace the structure. That's when you see that they are not acting in the best interests of all - only those that help make their model look ok.

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Been really interesting reading the comments on here from HTG with regards to the lopsidedness of any potential route to the SPFL via the North or South Route.

Ie in ability the 20th "ranked team non league North" may be a worse standard than the 200th "ranked non league south team".

Then we get the number of licensed clubs in each area that say the North has more "real eligible teams" so their can be no lopsided argument !

I wonder what League AM Soccer would/could actually apply to if they were based in Dundee and were licensed ?

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Selkirk had access to generous grants that were only available to full members. The fix was in, but we could drone on about this for pages and pages and never reach resolution. Things are where they are now, but won't stand still at that point. Maybe better to focus on how things will evolve down the road?

But we didn't and managed it as did East Kilbride. Lots of junior clubs are in a better position than us when we started out on the road to licencing. Exactly what is missing from the average super-league ground and costs so much money that the clubs are excluded from getting a license?

Edited by Cicero
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But we didn't and managed it as did East Kilbride. Lots of junior clubs are in a better position than us when we started out on the road to licencing. Exactly what is missing from the average super-league ground and costs so much money that the clubs are excluded from getting a license?

Not much. What is missing is an integrated link to the structure they came from. Let's say Ardeer got a licence, moved into the LL but were subsequently relegated. Where do they go? Edited by HTG
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This is true but perhaps more would feel comfortable about securing a licence and committing to a pyramid if the governing body were not so "anti" the whole concept. You have to remember that the SJFA was particularly negative in its view of the pyramid, is actively trying to establish an alternative and was resistant to the prospect of teams being able to move from a pyramid structure into the non pyramid structure. And the SJFA are completely hooked into the SFA. Tom Johnstone is on several Sfa boards I think.

In the face of all of that, I'd suggest that fear of the consequences of securing a licence is now causing some clubs to hold back on progress. It is easy for the existing senior non league teams - the lowland league is broadly a revamp of what they had. It is easy for completely new clubs who don't have any need to concern themselves overly with managing their current members, history,financial impacts etc. Much, much more difficult for a club like Auchinleck to throw it's current financial model on the fire, lose all contact with Ayrshire non league football and take the risk that the lowland league will deliver a comparable challenge to what they have.

I'm a huge pyramid fan and I really believe licenced junior teams would drive up standards but licencing applies only at that top level of the non league pyramid. I still suggest that all of these unlicensed but progressive clubs being brought under one roof would make the depth of each pyramid look massively skewed.

And neither the SFA nor the SJFA seem keen to talk about the subject and help junior clubs to embrace the structure. That's when you see that they are not acting in the best interests of all - only those that help make their model look ok.

No reminder needed of the sjfa's typical backwards let's pretend it's 1950 attitude, they've made that rather clear.

What consequences are there to being licensed? A bizarre statement, if clubs are deliberately holding back from progress then they should rot, and it's nobody's job to stop that happening.

If your suggesting some form of extension to the licencing system bellow entry so that all levels have some form of license then I fully support that. Regardless the juniors could easily make the sensible choice to require an entry license to play in the super leagues.

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There's no pro/rel agreement between the SJFA and the fifth tier yet. If they wanted to go back to the SJFA they would have to reapply for membership and would start out at the bottom again, if they were accepted. The SFA should have dealt with that issue before they started inviting clubs to join the LL. They are the national association, so they have the power to dictate on stuff like this.

Edited by LongTimeLurker
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No reminder needed of the sjfa's typical backwards let's pretend it's 1950 attitude, they've made that rather clear.

What consequences are there to being licensed? A bizarre statement, if clubs are deliberately holding back from progress then they should rot, and it's nobody's job to stop that happening.

If your suggesting some form of extension to the licencing system bellow entry so that all levels have some form of license then I fully support that. Regardless the juniors could easily make the sensible choice to require an entry license to play in the super leagues.

The consequences are obvious I'd have thought.

Why is it that these individual clubs NEED to leap from one SFA structure to another?

I'm not excusing junior teams here. I'm making a couple of points which must influence their thinking.

Leadership should come from the top but has been completely absent.

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The consequences are obvious I'd have thought.

Why is it that these individual clubs NEED to leap from one SFA structure to another?

I'm not excusing junior teams here. I'm making a couple of points which must influence their thinking.

Leadership should come from the top but has been completely absent.

You'll have to expand then, what possible negatives are there?

Well they need to individually move because collectively they are part of a backwards organisation, so if individual clubs want to progress then they need to either leave that organisation or at a minimum campaign for that organisation to change it's policy and engage properly with the other organisations. The sjfa has done absolutely nothing to engage so far, so you can't blame the others for moving on.

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We've now come full circle again with the Ardeer point: if the Juniors joined the pyramid system then relegation for a club like theirs would drop into what's at the current time the "West Juniors". And it could still to all intents and purposes be the West Juniors... I suppose it could even keep the name!!... just with the SOS League comprising a third district and a few of their teams in the higher levels?

Btw can the North Juniors do their own thing or would the whole national SJFA have to join lock-stock-n-barrel? I.e. could they negotiate their own link-up with HL.

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Tom Johnston has already indicated the north juniors do not exist with regard to their non invite to the super trouper League.

To be honest I suspect the North region would need to resign en mass and maybe invite all teams down to Dundee to join their HL2-3 or 4 breakaway.

I suspect this could happen as for instance I believe the SJFAs put down of the Norths annual request to start the season much earlier (Or is it more in line with the HFL) is a major alienation.

Edited by superbigal
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There's no pro/rel agreement between the SJFA and the fifth tier yet. If they wanted to go back to the SJFA they would have to reapply for membership and would start out at the bottom again, if they were accepted. The SFA should have dealt with that issue before they started inviting clubs to join the LL. They are the national association, so they have the power to dictate on stuff like this.

Too true mate.

Tom Johnston does not want the juniors to join any pyramid, as long as he is in charge, junior clubs will not be encouraged to participate...he is the wrong man at the right time....or indeed any time.

The SFA, if they really, really wanted a real pyramid would have dealt with Johnston and all related shite before they even started a Lowland League...this is really a nothing about not very much, a wasted opportunity, there should be an independent enquiry into the whole set up of Scottish fitba and any findings implemented without favour.The SFA are either incompetent or too worried about their own positions to deal with something that other countries find so feckin easy to adopt.

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We've now come full circle again with the Ardeer point: if the Juniors joined the pyramid system then relegation for a club like theirs would drop into what's at the current time the "West Juniors". And it could still to all intents and purposes be the West Juniors... I suppose it could even keep the name!!... just with the SOS League comprising a third district and a few of their teams in the higher levels?

Btw can the North Juniors do their own thing or would the whole national SJFA have to join lock-stock-n-barrel? I.e. could they negotiate their own link-up with HL.

Only full circle to a point though. There is nothing out there that allows a junior team to move to lowland league but then move back. Ardeer could easily end up in SoS League.

@Parsforlife, there is a limit to how much more I can expand. The SJFA has shown zero leadership so individual clubs need to make their own decisions. Whatever anyone thinks, that's a tough shout just now. I'd say my club and at least another dozen like it are progressive in their view of the game. But they really struggle to unpack the merits and financial implications of jumping ship. And for me, it's the need to jump ship that demonstrates the core of the problem.

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Only full circle to a point though. There is nothing out there that allows a junior team to move to lowland league but then move back. Ardeer could easily end up in SoS League.

@Parsforlife, there is a limit to how much more I can expand. The SJFA has shown zero leadership so individual clubs need to make their own decisions. Whatever anyone thinks, that's a tough shout just now. I'd say my club and at least another dozen like it are progressive in their view of the game. But they really struggle to unpack the merits and financial implications of jumping ship. And for me, it's the need to jump ship that demonstrates the core of the problem.

The problem I see for the SoS in the Pyramid is that the vast majority of Clubs aren't/won't be licensed and with an influx of teams from Ayrshire and Glasgow areas a lot of teams won't be able to afford the travelling costs involved.

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There won't be an influx though. Clubs are being actively discouraged by the way they are led at the top and on top of that they are naturally conservative anyway.

To be clear, the juniors are trying to set up their own joined up league covering the same territory as the lowland league, with indeterminate criteria around joining. But they will be different criteria from their LL counterpart. And the governance will be by the SJFA. Given that the stated position of the junior governing body is "not opposed to a pyramid in principle", how does that stance line up against trying to establish their own competitor league?

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There won't be an influx though. Clubs are being actively discouraged by the way they are led at the top and on top of that they are naturally conservative anyway.

To be clear, the juniors are trying to set up their own joined up league covering the same territory as the lowland league, with indeterminate criteria around joining. But they will be different criteria from their LL counterpart. And the governance will be by the SJFA. Given that the stated position of the junior governing body is "not opposed to a pyramid in principle", how does that stance line up against trying to establish their own competitor league?

This Pyramid System isn't well thought through.

Unless every club involved in the Pyramid is Licensed then it's pointless.

There will be a lot of teams in the SoS and EoS who won't be able to move up to the LL if they won their respective leagues due to a lack of a License.

I agree with a few posters on here that there isn't much attraction for the top Junior sides to join the LL.

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