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This started as an off topic debate between me and Pandarilla. About the state of education in this country. Whether it be primary, secondary or further education. This came to the forefront of my mind last week due to the £100m initiative last week. These sorts of things are nothing new and don't do anything to improve the overall standards. These are the result of top-down group think from people who only care about increasing their budgets and maintaining their positions. Due to these interests, they are in no position to fix anything.


You'll often hear people talking about "evil", "greed" or "corruption" as part of the problem when it comes to discussing the issues we have across society. However, my argument is these are symptoms as the result of incentives, ignorance or mental illness. Ignorance is simply not knowing, or not knowing that you don't know something. That is the easiest problem to solve, because all that takes is a bit of education (no pun intended). Mental illness in a political sense is continuing to believe or deny something. Despite superior evidence to the contrary. The way to solve that is through treatment. Whether it be showing someone hard facts to letting them face the full consequences of their beliefs. Incentives is what people are encouraged to do or think given the laws and systems in place. If the problems are incentive driven, then the solution is to change the incentives. This is by far the hardest one to fix, because it's difficult for most people to see and people in general are resistant to change out of fear of things becoming worse. Too often, people won't change until a crisis hits. To a certain extent we are all governed by these three things. Whether you realize it or not.


For years, I've heard the "lack of money" argument come from government sectors. Whether it be education or the NHS. I believe no amount of money will ever fix the problem. Due to what the incentives are. Whether it be the Education Department or the teachers union's. The system incentivizes institutionalized failure, because only in government can you make a monumental cock up and as the result of bashing heads together for a few hours. Come to the conclusion that the solution is to increase the budget. Due to this, spending on education has continually gone up in real terms over the years with negligible changes in the overall standards.

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Chief can you lay-out a brief description of what schooling (primary and secondary) should look like if you had your way. You're throwing in some radical points but I'm not entirely sure what you think would work better.

I accept my proposals will seem radical relative to what we have now and I don't mean to come across as "I have all the answers", but if I had my way. I would favour quasi private school system. Where parents are given school vouchers by the government and they can use it at a school of their choice. If a school charges more than the voucher, then parents can choose to pay a top up. I would also make it easier for people setup their own school. That way their is more choice and schools can be smaller and more specialized. Schools would be far more responsive to the parents, because they can threaten to take their children elsewhere and they would lose out as a result or the school head can fire bad teachers If they deem them to be ineffective. This would also mean control is maximally decentralized as schools have full control over their curriculum.

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I accept my proposals will seem radical relative to what we have now and I don't mean to come across as "I have all the answers", but if I had my way. I would favour quasi private school system. Where parents are given school vouchers by the government and they can use it at a school of their choice. If a school charges more than the voucher, then parents can choose to pay a top up. I would also make it easier for people setup their own school. That way their is more choice and schools can be smaller and more specialized. Schools would be far more responsive to the parents, because they can threaten to take their children elsewhere and they would lose out as a result or the school head can fire bad teachers If they deem them to be ineffective. This would also mean control is maximally decentralized as schools have full control over their curriculum.

Pie in the sky nonsense.

Why should parents have more power? They're not educationalists.

The real power parents have is when kids are pre-school - that's where kids' attitudes and minds are really formed. It's the best time to learn languages for example, establish a good diet, attitudes to exercise, reading, art etc...

I'd also not have absolute power in the hands of headteachers either - too many of them are bullies themselves and a good teacher does not necessarily equate a good manager.

No, let's keep the present system but cut charitable status to the private schools. Invest the money in more teachers and more early intervention for the small percentage of 'hopeless' kids from deprived backgrounds.

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In real terms, the population has never been better-educated that it is now. I'll take advice from Tory libertarian types on education when I start taking it from them on any other matter in the entire universe.

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The real power parents have is when kids are pre-school - that's where kids' attitudes and minds are really formed. It's the best time to learn languages for example, establish a good diet, attitudes to exercise, reading, art etc...

Absolutely spot on.

There is no greater factor in terms of pupil attainment than parental interest and involvement.

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Pie in the sky nonsense.

Why should parents have more power? They're not educationalists.

The real power parents have is when kids are pre-school - that's where kids' attitudes and minds are really formed. It's the best time to learn languages for example, establish a good diet, attitudes to exercise, reading, art etc...

I'd also not have absolute power in the hands of headteachers either - too many of them are bullies themselves and a good teacher does not necessarily equate a good manager.

No, let's keep the present system but cut charitable status to the private schools. Invest the money in more teachers and more early intervention for the small percentage of 'hopeless' kids from deprived backgrounds.

Yes, it's very difficult for most people to visualize in today's world, because it's a bit like trying to pitch a giant shiny metal bird that can fly 100's of people across the Atlantic within 6 hours to a hard nosed Victorian businessman 200 years ago or a combine harvester to a farmer who owns slaves 300 years ago.

Most of the "hopeless" kids you describe tend to brought up by single mums. That is a result of no fault divorce and divorce proceedings that are weighted in favour of the mother, as well as the "single mum state". Where children are effectively viewed as commodities and emotional weapons. That's not something that can be fixed within the education system. "Why should the parents have more power?" and "Invest the money in more teachers and more early intervention" are such authoritarian attitudes. It reminds me of these two stereotypes below.

kx015.png

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Most of the "hopeless" kids you describe tend to brought up by single mums. That is a result of no fault divorce and divorce proceedings that are weighted in favour of the mother

Libertarian moron is also a Men's Right Activist. This is a very unusual situation.

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In real terms, the population has never been better-educated that it is now. I'll take advice from Tory libertarian types on education when I start taking it from them on any other matter in the entire universe.

Can you provide the statistics to back this up. If it consists of pass rates on exams then don't bother.

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Yes, it's very difficult for most people to visualize in today's world, because it's a bit like trying to pitch a giant shiny metal bird that can fly 100's of people across the Atlantic within 6 hours to a hard nosed Victorian businessman 200 years ago or a combine harvester to a farmer who owns slaves 300 years ago.

Most of the "hopeless" kids you describe tend to brought up by single mums. That is a result of no fault divorce and divorce proceedings that are weighted in favour of the mother, as well as the "single mum state". Where children are effectively viewed as commodities and emotional weapons. That's not something that can be fixed within the education system. "Why should the parents have more power?" and "Invest the money in more teachers and more early intervention" are such authoritarian attitudes. It reminds me of these two stereotypes below.

kx015.png

'Most'? Do you have stats to back this up. The ones I know only partially conform to your stereotype though there are a few with missing fathers, sometimes in jail. Are you insinuating the mothers are at fault here?

Yes, early intervention. If kids have deep seated emotional and mental problems then they need help or else we'll pay the cost later on. If a kid was physically sick, you wouldn't term it 'authoritarian'. Neither would you - i hope - oppose the various prevention initiatives aimed at kids - road safety, electrical safety, drug awareness etc. And, are you saying that fewer teachers is the answer?

Edit - just noticed the dumb cartoon - 'experts are bad'??? Next time my kids are ill, I'll just refer them to some libertarian bampot on an internet forum instead of taking them to the state-funded NHS which is overflowing with 'arrogant' experts? Ditto, education. Wonder if football runs on similar lines?

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Can you provide the statistics to back this up. If it consists of pass rates on exams then don't bother.

I'd agree with him but not because of exam stats. School today is way better than it was when I attended some 30-odd years ago. Behaviour is much better despite the actions of an extreme few. The breadth of experience is also much better.

Sure, things could be better still - smaller class sizes for one as the well as dealing with poverty in some areas ( a knock-on effect obviously for schools) but kids in schools today get a more holistic and child-centred learning experience - more science, more sport, different ways to learn spelling and maths, more languages (Gaelic medium education is great, for one) and a knowledge of up-to-date ICT.

The thing is, if we totally went for the successful Finnish/ Nordic models, educationalists would be accused of being too left-wing and spending too much tax-money.

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I don't debate libertarians or MRAs. I mock and abuse them. That's all they deserve.

In that case you're backing yourself into a corner, as it's a waste of time to debate with anyone who has a "I don't debate with people I perceive as...", because that becomes their debate ender. I'll make this my last response to you.

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I'd agree with him but not because of exam stats. School today is way better than it was when I attended some 30-odd years ago. Behaviour is much better despite the actions of an extreme few. The breadth of experience is also much better.

Sure, things could be better still - smaller class sizes for one as the well as dealing with poverty in some areas ( a knock-on effect obviously for schools) but kids in schools today get a more holistic and child-centred learning experience - more science, more sport, different ways to learn spelling and maths, more languages (Gaelic medium education is great, for one) and a knowledge of up-to-date ICT.

The thing is, if we totally went for the successful Finnish/ Nordic models, educationalists would be accused of being too left-wing and spending too much tax-money.

Anecdotal. I left school more than two decades ago and if I look at my children (and their friends) I would disagree entirely. This holistic approach doesn't actually exist, whilst it may be further reaching, it is built on sand.

If you want evidence of this, go into a shop where a younger person on the till, let them use the till to add up the cost (lets say 13.62) and offer to pay with a £20 note. Once it has been rung through the till, offer her the 12p to reduce the amount of change. The majority that I have ever done this with will struggle to do the basic arithmetic (or should that be maths since artihmetic has disappeared in this holistic approach).

However, if someone can show me evidence then I would be interested in it.

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Absolutely spot on.

There is no greater factor in terms of pupil attainment than parental interest and involvement.

You're a pedagogue if I remember rightly?

If so you must know that that's not the whole story. The Scottish govt have stats on attainment versus the Scottish index of multiple deprivation scores for all schools. It shows that schools can make a serious difference, either positive or negative.

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Anecdotal. I left school more than two decades ago and if I look at my children (and their friends) I would disagree entirely. This holistic approach doesn't actually exist, whilst it may be further reaching, it is built on sand.

If you want evidence of this, go into a shop where a younger person on the till, let them use the till to add up the cost (lets say 13.62) and offer to pay with a £20 note. Once it has been rung through the till, offer her the 12p to reduce the amount of change. The majority that I have ever done this with will struggle to do the basic arithmetic (or should that be maths since artihmetic has disappeared in this holistic approach).

However, if someone can show me evidence then I would be interested in it.

tbf working a till is so mind numbing that you go into autopilot and just go by the till. I'd imagine this is probably the reason that people dont always get it right straight away, rather than not being able to do simple arithmetic.

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