TheScarf Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Bigotry doesn't offend me. I won't be signing the petition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P45 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I dislike cyclists. My name in P45 and I am a bigot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Bigotry doesn't offend me. I won't be signing the petition. It doesn't offend me either but it does make my heart sink a little at the thought of having to share a Planet with people with such an outdated mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeegieDon Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Ban religion first then you might start getting somewhere. Religious schools are possibly the most divisive concept a society can have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Gaines Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I don't think taking sanctions against the club would necessarily make anyone shut up. These people are absolute cretins and therefore don't give a f**k about consequences. Might make people confront them though, and depending on numbers, that COULD do more harm than good despite the regular cries of "what do you do about it?" from the simpletons. I'm not sure there's much that can be done outside of the clubs banning people who get involved in these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P45 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Ban religion first then you might start getting somewhere. Religious schools are possibly the most divisive concept a society can have. I thought you were into freedom of speech? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williemillersmoustache Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Self policing is the key here, criminal legislation and fines are utterly worthless as has been demonstrated time and again. But other 'decent' fans need to be incentivised to act or condemn their own. Which means points deductions and meaningful games played behind closed doors for every unspeakable and shameful display we get from THEM. That's how you achieve self-policing when there is no appetite from the fans themselves. But what'll happen is ICT or the Dons will get hammered for one young 'een shouting Teucthers! or Sheep-Shaggers heard live on TV. While Celtic and sevco will just roll out the armed forces day or Jay Beatty to show what love-able community based scamps they all are and continue to mysteriously side-step any meaningful actions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weesiecodal Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I am no fan of Doncaster but let's be perfectly clear, the blames lies with the SFA/SPFL members not their chief executive. The issue of taking action or not taking action against football 'fans' is a policy matter. The chairmen who make up the committees of the governing bodies are the only ones who can tackle this. Tom English made the point on radio on Saturday that UEFA take the position that a club is responsible for the action of its supporters. The SFA/SPFL position is that as long as they think the club is "doing all it can" to address the problem then the club will not be help accountable. IMO it is time for us to adopt the far tougher UEFA position but this will require the club chairmen to collectively adopt that policy. This. I heard this too. Apparently the Governing bodies wanted to bring in a policy of strict liability, so that clubs would be deemed responsible for their fans behaviour. This wasn't puely for sectarian/religious/political behaviour, but for all offensive, unacceptable or dangerous behaviour. Two clubs out of the 42 Scottish clubs (5%) backed the proposals. There's where the problem lies, because, like it or not, all of our clubs have idiots who can cause grief - maybe not by offensive chanting, but other troublesome behaviour. What pisses me off most though is the whataboutery. A celtic fan phoned in to off the ball in the evening and was getting in a state because celtic don't sing sectarian songs, and don't have sectarian banners. It was agreed that celtics chanting and banners were political rather than sectarian. I couldn't actually give a shit. It's just as offensive, vile, inflammatory and aggressive. It celebrates the death of innocent people, and it's totally irrelevant to the activities taking place in the big green rectangle in front of you that you've paid to watch. The Rangers fans songs last Friday about Bobby Sands weren't strictly sectarian, but they were disgusting and offensive. This situation is not improving, so it needs to be dealt with, and if it means that other clubs get caught up in it, and are punished for incidents where their fans are arseholes, then so be it...... It will only help fans to police themselves if they think their clubs are going to have to play behind closed doors or have points docked. (I don't think fans relate to clubs being fined) As for the criticism of Stan Collymore. He's done some stupid things in his time, and rightly deserves stick for that, but that doesn't mean he is not entitled to highlight behaviour which is offensive and illegal, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeegieDon Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I thought you were into freedom of speech? I sure am but belivieing in magic pixies is a step too far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 This. I heard this too. Apparently the Governing bodies wanted to bring in a policy of strict liability, so that clubs would be deemed responsible for their fans behaviour. This wasn't puely for sectarian/religious/political behaviour, but for all offensive, unacceptable or dangerous behaviour. Two clubs out of the 42 Scottish clubs (5%) backed the proposals. There's where the problem lies, because, like it or not, all of our clubs have idiots who can cause grief - maybe not by offensive chanting, but other troublesome behaviour. I think the problem here is that the clubs - perhaps correctly - feared that the remit was too wide-reaching and general, e.g. we'd get into a whole debate about what is offensive that would either lead to nothing being done or sanctions being applied for minor infractions or debatable issues. I would therefore forget about a catch-all policy and try to tackle issues by category, i.e. we know what words are racist terms, we know what words are sectarian terms. There are already laws relating to hate-speech, so if a crowd is singing songs featuring those words, the club should be sanctioned accordingly. This is not a new or outrageous idea; we have already seen a variant of this used in Eastern Europe after racist chanting. The only thing that is missing here is buy-in from the clubs. West Ham have today said they'll ban anyone found to have been chanting anti-Semitic terms, so it's a simple paradigm: why have Rangers not said that they'll ban anyone found using sectarian terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 why have Rangers not said that they'll ban anyone found using sectarian terms? It is almost impossible to have a debate/discussion about football chants in Scotland without some saying that someone has an agenda. Which chants would you like proscribed? Anything using the term '******'? Anything about 'The Ra'? How about 'The Wheels on your house'? Which are 'offensive'? Chants about kiddy-fiddling? What's the line between that as banter and that as fair comment? How is chanting "Go home ya ****" acceptable but chants about Rix deemed acceptable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estragon Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Will this petition impinge upon my white hot hatred of St Johnstone? Cos if it does I'm not signing it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 It is almost impossible to have a debate/discussion about football chants in Scotland without some saying that someone has an agenda. Which chants would you like proscribed? Anything using the term '******'? Anything about 'The Ra'? How about 'The Wheels on your house'? Which are 'offensive'? Chants about kiddy-fiddling? What's the line between that as banter and that as fair comment? How is chanting "Go home ya ****" acceptable but chants about Rix deemed acceptable? Well that's part of the point about me saying that we can't expect an "absolute" solution; we have to start with the terms we can get agreement on and then move forward gradually. We know what racist terms are unacceptable, and I think I'm correct in saying that nearly all were once acceptable. So you tell me - what changed? The truth is is was a process of coming to a consensus. It's not perfect obviously, as if it was it wouldn't happen anymore, and we wouldn't be hearing about West Ham fans chanting about "K*k*s". So... we start with certain terms and certain phrases. Is "Up to our knees in feinian blood" totally unacceptable? Yes, it plainly is. Ideally I'd have a review within the SFA that debates these and adds to the banned-list where necessary. Basically I can't be bothered with whataboutery. Sometimes fans will be furious that they can't sing their songs, but that others haven't yet been banned... though shit. Wait a bit and the other songs likely will be. But stop and think about it... what would they be annoyed about? That someone else is being offensive and they've been restricted from being so in a very specific way? Is it that important to them that they can be horrible in that specific manner, and if so, what does it say about them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 It is almost impossible to have a debate/discussion about football chants in Scotland without some saying that someone has an agenda. Which chants would you like proscribed? Anything using the term '******'? Anything about 'The Ra'? How about 'The Wheels on your house'? Which are 'offensive'? Chants about kiddy-fiddling? What's the line between that as banter and that as fair comment? How is chanting "Go home ya ****" acceptable but chants about Rix deemed acceptable? Well that's part of the point about me saying that we can't expect an "absolute" solution; we have to start with the terms we can get agreement on and then move forward gradually. We know what racist terms are unacceptable, and I think I'm correct in saying that nearly all were once acceptable. So you tell me - what changed? You started well. Most of the rest of your post was utter drek so I've not quoted it. I'd still be interested in feedback from posters on here who are brave enough to to draw the line between acceptable/unacceptable chants and for whom "It's nothing to do with football" is a shite reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Remember when the fans all wore Orange tops in the cup final against us? Yup. I remember that. We can see it here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Do you think they did all they could to discourage sectarianism that day? By what? Limiting it to 4-0? Would 2-0 have been less sectarian and 6-0 more sectarian? Your abject apology of a club got fucking humped and you're bleating about the score being sectarian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7-2 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 So... we start with certain terms and certain phrases. Is "Up to our knees in feinian blood" totally unacceptable? Yes, it plainly is. Ideally I'd have a review within the SFA that debates these and adds to the banned-list where necessary. Start with the greatest question there is...why? Why is it said or done? The reasons are the same with both of the bigot brothers despite Celtic rebranding themselves as political in a failed attempt to try and avoid being tarred as sectarian. The thing is, there's nobody in Scotland brave enough to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Gaines Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 By what? Limiting it to 4-0? Would 2-0 have been less sectarian and 6-0 more sectarian? Your abject apology of a club got fucking humped and you're bleating about the score being sectarian? One of the most pathetic deflections I've seen on here. Still in denial over supporting a diddy team too. Not a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 One of the most pathetic deflections I've seen on here. The alternative is to say that wearing orange is sectarian. I know that you and the wee Aberdeen w****r would really love to make this the point but everyone would point and laugh if you did so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Do you think they did all they could to discourage sectarianism that day? A simple "no" would have sufficed. Why? I don't recall any sectarianism that day. Do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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