Challenge cup

[RabidAl]

That is only for reasons of historical quirk. Texaco Cup became Anglo-Scottish Cup. It was replaced by the FL Group Cup. It was replaced by the Associate Members Cup (for clubs in tiers 3 & 4 - since renamed FL Trophy) and Full Members Cup (for clubs in tiers 1 & 2). Then when EPL was formed in 1992 the tier 2 clubs were left with nothing so the Anglo-Italian Cup was established. When it stopped in 1996 they were left with no tournament again...If somewhere along the line they'd had all 3 divisions in 1 cup it might well still be happening now.

Personally I'd see no appeal in removing Championship clubs from the Challenge Cup.

Since they added 2 non-league clubs, replacing the byes, and regionalised R2 it's been pretty optimal, IMO.

Heard that it might be the top two from the Lowland League who will qualify for the Challenge Cup next season. Presumably it'll be the same for the top two of the Highland League.

Not sure what format they're intending to use - just a preliminary round for the HL/LL clubs maybe?

I'd rather see them in the main draw, and more clubs qualifying automatically from tier 5 in the first place.

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EDIT: potential format for 34-team Challenge Cup

Round 1: (2) Highland League, (2) Lowland League, (10) League Two, (4) League One (18 teams; 9 qualify).

Round 2: (9) from Round One, (6) League One, (3) Championship (18 teams; 9 qualify).

Round 3: (9) from Round Two, (7) Championship (16 teams; 8 qualify).

Quarters, Semis, Final as normal.

But if we're having 6 rounds we might as well get more than just 4 teams from the HL & LL involved.

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EDIT II

For example:

Round 1: (6) Highland League, (6) Lowland League, (8 League Two (20 teams; 10 qualify).

Round 2: (10) from Round 1, (2) League Two, (10) League One, (10) Championship (32 teams; 16 qualify).

And so on as normal. Much more interesting, loads of new fixtures each year, supports development of the pyramid with more seniors involved each season, keeps relegated clubs in touch with the SPFL, spreads money down with full-timers/big supports for small clubs to be drawn against in all-in second round, etc.

Edited March 19, 2015 by RabidAl

[RabidAl]

P.S. - my source for the above was commentary by Pitchside Media on highlights of the Lowland League.

It was mentioned in a couple of the recent games, as in 'second place in the Lowland League qualifies for the Challenge Cup' - although the commentator could have meant 'challenge cup' in the sense that the juniors do in the following:

3. The names of clubs entered for the competition by virtue of
membership, shall be placed in a receptacle and except that a club
may be balloted as having a ‘bye’ into the Second Round of the
competition, the clubs shall be balloted in couples to compete with
each other in the First Round of the competition. Those clubs who
have qualified to participate in the Scottish Senior Challenge Cup
will receive a bye in the first round of the Junior Cup.

{SJFA Constitution, Rules and Cup Competition Rules; Cup Competition Rules, p.15}

Which I take it is just an old-fashioned way of saying the senior Scottish Cup. Or can we expect juniors in the Challenge Cup sometime soon?

Or, indeed, he could have meant the South Challenge Cup...

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EDIT:

Found this in the Scottish FA Handbook 2014/15, which will no doubt be what the commentator from Pitchside Media was going on about:

“the Challenge Cup Competition” means “The Scottish Cup”; {p.68}

Round One

The clubs which, in the current season, are members of The Scottish Professional Football League,
shall be exempt from playing in Round One of the Competition.

The clubs which, in the previous season, have won the Scottish Highland Football League
Championship or the Scottish Lowland Football League Championship shall also be exempt
from playing in Round One, as shall the runners up in the Scottish Highland Football League
Championship or the Scottish Lowland Football League Championship. {p.173}

Edited March 25, 2015 by RabidAl

[Bully Wee Villa]

You could easily have a straightforward 32-team knockout with just the two League Two/HL/LL Playoff losers making up up the numbers. I like the format as it is. Extra games in the Summer, but nothing to get too worked up over if you lose.

They shouldn't ever have such ridiculous breaks between rounds though. Didn't Raith and Rangers have to wait about five months in between the semi and the final last year?

Edited March 20, 2015 by Bully Wee Villa

[RabidAl]

As it is, the Challenge Cup is just League Cup lite - it could do with some identity other than simply being the League Cup but with the most successful teams removed.

Add in a dozen teams from the senior regional leagues and you get a much more vibrant tournament with more of its own identity.

I agree about the irregular scheduling of rounds; i'd use the Saturdays of international breaks and maybe a date in early February for the rounds.

[SpoonTon]

If I could change one thing about the challenge cup it would be to make it finish much earlier in the season. Is there any real reason why it needs to go beyond September/October? Surely a short, snappy tournament with potential early season silverware in sight is a more attractive option than an oddly spaced out 8/9 month cup?

That's part of the problem with the challenge and league cup, there's no momentum and a lack of purpose.

[RabidAl]

I agree with that.

We have the Scottish Cup which - if you take away replays and continue to add in all of the senior clubs - is the ideal cup competition.

Then we have the League Cup which will always look like a poor relation - because it doesn't have the number of teams or the history, and also because seeding makes it biased towards the more successful clubs with some teams also only having to play 4 matches to win the thing. These factors devalue it. The League Cup needs to remove the seeding or offset it with home ties for the lower-ranked clubs. It could do with being a short, sharp competition that is finished by the end of November, and some variety in the format (perhaps changing every other year) such as regional groups.

Then we have the Challenge Cup which is the League Cup minus the most successful clubs and with a final that is half a season away from the other rounds.

The Challenge Cup would be more interesting if it brought in many more teams from outwith the SPFL and would be more of a 'challenge' than just being League Cup lite. It could be a shorter competition, as you say, but i'd probably save that for the League Cup and instead spread the rounds out over international weekends.

[mrman2011]

I actually like the idea of more Lowland and Highland teams involved in the challenge cup

[RabidAl]

I'd like to see the SPFL have a re-think of the format and participants for this competition.

I'll admit that there is a little novelty value in some of the fixtures, but that's not a basis for a quality tournament.

It's a shame really, because there is so much potential for the Challenge Cup to be a really desirable trophy if it was the national competition for league and non-league part-time teams, or if it was the national non-league trophy; it would be great to see it as a proper 'challenge' tournament including the best part-time seniors, juniors and amateurs; the popularity of the juniors' Scottish Cup shows how much better it could be than the present format.

For me, the Challenge Cup never really had much appeal before - now it has no identity whatsoever.  

[algy]

If it were me.... sack the colts & English teams out of it.  The colts devalue the competition. Less anti English non-league sides, but leaving them out makes it easier to have a sensible format ...

Regionalised matches in brackets.  League teams entering at 1st round split with 14 in one regional group and 16 in the other, depending on whatever's the most geographically convenient.

Preliminary round - (16x Highland League teams) +(16x Lowland League) + (12 Welsh Premier League) + (12 RoI Premier League) + (12 NI Premier League)
1st Round - (8 Highland League winners + 14/16 Scottish league) + (8 Lowland League winners + 14/16 Scottish League) + (6 Welsh winners) + (6 RoI winners) + (6 NI winners)
2nd Round - 11/12 North Scotland winners + 11/12 South Scotland winners + 3 Welsh winners + 3 RoI winners + 3 NI winners
3rd Round - ...

• The Scottish League sides play the same number of fixtures that they do currently
• All Highland & Lowland league teams enter
• Acts as a top-level competition for teams from Wales, Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland 

[Sergeant Wilson]

On 12/6/2018 at 23:11, algy said:

If it were me.... sack the colts & English teams out of it.  The colts devalue the competition. Less anti English non-league sides, but leaving them out makes it easier to have a sensible format ...

Regionalised matches in brackets.  League teams entering at 1st round split with 14 in one regional group and 16 in the other, depending on whatever's the most geographically convenient.

Preliminary round - (16x Highland League teams) +(16x Lowland League) + (12 Welsh Premier League) + (12 RoI Premier League) + (12 NI Premier League)
1st Round - (8 Highland League winners + 14/16 Scottish league) + (8 Lowland League winners + 14/16 Scottish League) + (6 Welsh winners) + (6 RoI winners) + (6 NI winners)
2nd Round - 11/12 North Scotland winners + 11/12 South Scotland winners + 3 Welsh winners + 3 RoI winners + 3 NI winners
3rd Round - ...

• The Scottish League sides play the same number of fixtures that they do currently
• All Highland & Lowland league teams enter
• Acts as a top-level competition for teams from Wales, Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland 

Top level?

[BishopLenBrennan]

On ‎26‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 18:23, RabidAl said:

I'd like to see the SPFL have a re-think of the format and participants for this competition.

I'll admit that there is a little novelty value in some of the fixtures, but that's not a basis for a quality tournament.

It's a shame really, because there is so much potential for the Challenge Cup to be a really desirable trophy if it was the national competition for league and non-league part-time teams, or if it was the national non-league trophy; it would be great to see it as a proper 'challenge' tournament including the best part-time seniors, juniors and amateurs; the popularity of the juniors' Scottish Cup shows how much better it could be than the present format.

For me, the Challenge Cup never really had much appeal before - now it has no identity whatsoever.  

Nah, the Juniors can get to f**k. If they want to benefit from participation in national tournaments then they should join the pyramid system and actually contribute to Scottish football as a whole. As much as I like trips down to Beith in the Scottish Cup, I'd much rather their self-preservationist bullshit was over and done with. Join the senior pyramid or go and fester in the amateurs.

[algy]

On 6/14/2018 at 05:49, Sergeant Wilson said:

Top level?

High status?  Not sure what the wording is.

Anyway, so the top teams in those leagues would put out reasonably strong sides, and it's seen as a  high profile competition for teams in those leagues.

[BishopLenBrennan]

One minor thing, as it's an SFA sanctioned tournament, do all fixtures need to be refereed by SFA registered refs? I didn't care enough to check who refereed the ties in NI and Wales.

That could prove to be a stumbling block in having qualifying rounds involving non-Scottish teams.

[Tory Boy]

Personally think the Irish, Welsh, English & especially the Colt teams shouldn't be in the tournement. I'd much rather they'd have the Highland & Lowland teams taking part.

[BishopLenBrennan]

2 hours ago, Tory Boy said:

Personally think the Irish, Welsh, English & especially the Colt teams shouldn't be in the tournement. I'd much rather they'd have the Highland & Lowland teams taking part.

I think the foreign teams give a novelty factor to the tournament that helps with the appeal of the tournament. Fans want a weekend away on the piss following their team and this is a decent way to offer that opportunity. Replacing the 12 Colt teams with the top six from both the HL and LL would have the makings of an excellent tournament full of #scenes.

[Sergeant Wilson]

On 05/07/2018 at 12:47, BishopLenBrennan said:

I think the foreign teams give a novelty factor to the tournament that helps with the appeal of the tournament. Fans want a weekend away on the piss following their team and this is a decent way to offer that opportunity. Replacing the 12 Colt teams with the top six from both the HL and LL would have the makings of an excellent tournament full of #scenes.

How many actually travel? The away supports looked poor in any i seen on the telly? Except maybe Linfield who's numbers were boosted from elsewhere.

[Doonhamer doon south]

On 07/07/2018 at 10:18, Sergeant Wilson said:

How many actually travel? The away supports looked poor in any i seen on the telly? Except maybe Linfield who's numbers were boosted from elsewhere.

Linfield brought just over a thousand to Palmerston. If most of them were elsewhere supporters we werent complaining. Televised game, decent atmosphere and support, and winning the tie made for an altogether good day. On the flip side several hundred doonhamers travelled down to tns and although we lost the tie i think the fans had a good time (couldnt make it gutted). Foreign teams are a good addition on the whole for me. 

 

I really enjoyed the semi finals last year in particular the dumbarton game which had some fantastic scenes near the end. 

[prodcast]

I would have liked to have seen this competition as being only for Scottish senior teams, including all non-league seniors and all non-Premiership SPFL teams; it would be good to have this as a cup competition to support the senior league pyramid, at this time of integration and change.

[RabidAI]

Maybe just go with the 30 non-Premiership SPFL clubs and the 34 Highland and Lowland League clubs this season.

Straightforward 64-team knock out, without as many Covid complications of having cross-border matches. Not sure what's happening with the colts/reserve teams this season, but they've not enriched this competition either. 

[Thistle Scotland Europe]

I think it is important to have Championship teams in the trophy. So there is as high a standard as possible in the trophy.