Rewilding Scotland

[Snobot]

2 hours ago, NewBornBairn said:

How much income do you think Yellowstone Park brings in? Let me help you- $650m. Now how much do you think it would bring in with most of the wildlife culled to benefit a single non-native species, all the trees removed, access limited to the public and an entirely alien eco system introduced? A tenth? A twentieth?

Surely grouse are native but other than that fair points. I think Britain / Ireland are the only place red grouse exist.

33 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

Diego, have a read of this and some of the other publications released by Revive:


https://revive.scot/publication/back-to-life-visions-for-alternative-futures-for-scotlands-grouse-moors/

Exactly, the binary “shooting is worth x, tourism is worth y” approach is a nonsense. The ecological, environmental and social benefits of replacing grouse moors with something that actually benefits the country and its population are key. At the moment vast swathes of the country are owned in trust by absentee wealthy tax dodgers who let out shooting to equally wealthy individuals who have no interest in the country or people beyond their “set”. I would recommend a trip to the Argyllshire Gathering in August when things return to normal and witness the Members’ Tent to see this embodied in tartan technicolour. 

The “benefits” to society of the current system are small numbers of forelock tugging keepers’ jobs and ancillary jobs in lodges. They might stop at Bruar for lobster and chips I suppose, but who ultimately benefits from that?

The debit side of the ledger is well documented, but has its roots in the late 18th early 19th century. In some ways it’s a microcosm of the Indy debate - your land is currently run really badly and if you take it on it’ll be shite and worthless, ignoring the myriad opportunities to manage it differently from the current regime and create something which benefits more than just the elite.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Snobot
Spelling

[DiegoDiego]

I have no idea. I don't even think it necessarily should be restricted just to tourism, as enormous swaths of grouse moor could be given over to forestry and grants to allow individuals to manage their own micro plots as happens in Sweden. This would be a much more exciting use of the land. I'm not an enormous fan of considering topics such as these in terms of pounds and pennies - some things just shouldn't be on the table in the first place. We wouldn't countenance putting on bear baiting shows in town centres for instance.

I read jamamafegan's link and I don't think many of those alternatives involve the rewilding that NewBornBairn was on about.

We're getting away from my point though. I'm on the same page as most of you here, I just thought that lambasting people for making up numbers and then making up one of your own a sentence later is pretty hypocritical and doesn't do any favours.

[jamamafegan]

Re 'rewilding' - I haven't read the full thread but it's worth remembering that the areas of Scotland that we think of as 'wild' have long histories of human habitation. Local people in these places need industry, jobs and housing far more than they need 'rewilding' or more tourism. 

Rewilding isn’t about keeping humans out of places - it’s about creating environments where wildlife and people coexist to the benefit of both.

I’ve noticed a few grousers saying that rewilders are trying to do “the highland clearances part 2.” Not only is this nonsense but it’s kinda rich coming from them, considering the places they’ve helped created through their industry currently support very few opportunities for people to live and work. The other industry is sheep farming which, although isn’t nearly as controversial as grouse shooting, is of course the reason why people were cleared off the hills in the first place.

It’s about striking a balance. We live in one of the most nature depleted nations on earth and only 4% of Scotland is covered in native woodland. It’s just not good enough.

[Dunning1874]

Back to the issue of the ever so mysterious satellite tag:

 https://www.scottishlandandestates.co.uk/news/scottish-land-estates-statement-satellite-tag

“This particular incident highlights the need for the control of satellite tags to be placed into the hands of an independent organisation and for that data to be shared publicly in real-time."

Yes, what this highlights is not the duplicitousness of shooting estates and the need to restrict or preferably abolish them, but the need trust the management of this information to a truly independent body and have it shared in real time, so gamekeepers can see where birds which they definitely have no interest in killing are at any given time.

[jamamafegan]

I’ve been banned from commenting on the Tayside Moorland Groups Facebook page [emoji38]

[Whitburn Vale]

Petition up and running by the Lynx Trust on change.org relating to bringing the Eurasian Lynx back,signed it last nite and shared on what's app 

[Whitburn Vale]

30 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

As covered previously these guys are shysters and spivs. Avoid.

What's there background mixu?

[Whitburn Vale]

6 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

It's Paul O'Donoghue from Highland Titles who tried and failed to ruin Andy Wightman by suing him for defamation. 

Thanks mixu,enough said 

[jamamafegan]

Brilliant parody of the Dragons Den by Revive showing how ludicrous it would be if someone presented driven grouse shooting as their pitch.

[Shotgun]

2 hours ago, jamamafegan said:

Brilliant parody of the Dragons Den by Revive showing how ludicrous it would be if someone presented driven grouse shooting as their pitch.

A question I've asked royalists is "Just suppose we'd never had a royal family. How would you present a case for starting one?"

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Great stuff, although personally think we shouldn't be paying for it.

Spoiler

 

[bennett]

 

 

The Scottish Fishermen’s Federation (SFF) has come to blows with marine conservationists and creel fishermen campaigning to reinstate a three-mile fishing ban around the coastline. The Our Seas coalition, supported by The National Trust for Scotland is urging ministers to act to enable the recovery of depleted fish stocks and seabeds while preventing illegal scallop dredging.

 

Mark Ruskell MSP, Scottish Greens spokesperson for Climate, Energy, Environment, Food and Farming, said the report reveals a “shocking level of environmental destruction”.

The row follows the release of a government document which claims Scotland has failed to meet a ten-year-old target to prevent damage to precious marine wildlife.

The report, revealed by online investigative platform The Ferret, said the level of damage to the coastline environment has been described as “shocking”, and reveals “priority” seabed habitats located around the coast have declined in five large areas since 2011

 

Full article 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1355632/fishing-scotland-brexit-trawlers-government-SNP-ban-fishermen-SFF/amp

 

[Ziggy]

Not exactly rewilding but I rehomed 2 hedgehogs last week.

[jamamafegan]

A theory I was thinking about the other day. How would folk feel if the Scottish Government announced plans to spend taxpayers money to acquire a large area of land and create a new, huge native woodland? Let's say they were going to spend £25 million. The money would be used to purchase the land and start a tree planting programme. The programme would provide full-time positions in things like tree planting, path creation and management. The creation of the woodland itself would help to meet long term climate goals, boost biodiversity and provide a magnificent woodland for future generations to come.

Would you support this? I can't see any reason why this wouldn't be a good idea - unless I've missed something glaringly obvious? I think it would a brilliant idea.

[bennett]

The current trend of large sitka spruce forests not only look horrible but do very little for our environment, plants and wildlife would benefit more from a enlightened forestry plan like Jama's idea.

Regenerating our native forests should be a governmental priority. 

[Hedgecutter]

I like the idea of some natural ‘deep jungle’ woodland where you can walk into the interior and can be over an hours walk to the edge of it. 

[jamamafegan]

I think you just invented the forestry commission

Doh! [emoji38]

The current trend of large sitka spruce forests not only look horrible but do very little for our environment, plants and wildlife would benefit more from a enlightened forestry plan like Jama's idea.
Regenerating our native forests should be a governmental priority. 

Okay, so this is more what I was thinking. When you open the FC website you are met with the message “forests and land that Scotland can be proud of.” I think that’s laughable. What is there to be proud about with non-native plantations used primarily for timber?

What I meant in my previous post was the creation of a woodland thats purpose is to simply exist. It doesn’t need to produce timber - it’s there to provide a new home for wildlife and a place for people to visit, a place that’s good for our mental well being.

[jamamafegan]

I like the idea of some natural ‘deep jungle’ woodland where you can walk into the interior and can be over an hours walk to the edge of it. 

It is the dream. There are countless areas across Scotland where this is easily achievable.

[Ziggy]

There’s a programme on BBC IPlayer called ‘Making Scotland’s Landscape’. 

The 1st episode is all about Scotland’s forests and how they have changed since the last ice age.

 

[Snobot]

The idea that Forestry and Land Scotland are pursuing blanket Sitka Spruce planting is way off the mark. Certainly on the land they actually own and manage, they are trying to slowly restructure into a mosaic of productive woodland, native woodland, low impact silviculture, riparian woodland etc. Here’s a link to a management plan on one of their places if you have a spare few minutes:-

https://forestryandland.gov.scot/what-we-do/planning/active/lael-lmp

My grandfather was a foreman there back in the day and the last of his trees are probably just about gone I would imagine.

There has to be a place for productive forestry in addition to all the environmental focus as we need wood and it provides a meaningful income, which means some forestry will not necessarily tick all the idealistic access and recreation boxes. Ideally, I like to see Scots Pine, as even commercial SP supports diverse native wildlife, but SP may not be suitable on all land.

The grant schemes for private owners mandate a certain amount of broadleaf planting in any proposal and there are stringent rules about what and where you can plant stuff eg not on deep peat. 

Most of the unattractive mono culture you see today was planted > 35 years ago in less enlightened times. 

I was really taken on a trip to Mar Lodge forest / Corrour Bothy 10 years ago how quickly the Caledonian forest would regenerate if allowed to by excluding deer and sheep - I would love to go back again soon to see it. Exploitation of deer and grouse is a significant impediment to natural regeneration.