WaffenThinMint Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 So St Johnstone boycotted the fixture? But took marginally more than they did for the league game, how does that work? What about St Mirren, did they boycottt it as well? Anyway, it is irrelevant as is your comment about Talbot support being exaggerated, so is Celtic's but no one in their right mind would deny it is none the less a huge support, as is Talbot's within non league circles. My point is this, to block them and the other big supported Junior clubs from the early rounds of the Senior Cup helps no one, and is classic cutting the nose off to spite the face. By the way, I agree with you up to a point regarding integrating non league, but clubs like Rose, Talbot, Medda, Bo,ness, etc should not be wagged by the tail of LL clubs with no support and aspirations that are wholly unrealistic. Incidentally, Troon have one of the best set ups in the Juniors, superb wee ground! Credit where it's due. You usually find in Hearts Scottish Cup games the away support gets a wee boost from Hibees going along, the tourney's been a bit of a sore point with them since 1902... Celtic's is in the tens of thousands every match, Talbot's is in the thousands special occasions only. Major difference. Yes, the same can be said for the bottom tier of the SPFL, but the fact remains their bottom feeders still pull in more for routine matches than the Juniors ever do, & that's what's of greater interest to clubs - not the lick & a promise that "och it's only a hundred for normal games, but I'm sure we'll fill five buses if it's a good cup draw." "as is Talbot's within non league circles" - and that's just it, "non-league circles" up here don't amount to a tin of Heinz. They simply haven't the remotest same clout they do within the English system where they are taken, & a major part of that is because they are divided into two partially competing factions. "My point is this, to block them and the other big supported Junior clubs from the early rounds of the Senior Cup helps no one." But they aren't blocked - all they will have to do is pay the entry fee and meet the requirements same as every other club. Talbot and the rest however seem to think they're such special little snowflakes that having been given four wild cards out of good grace, these are now some inalienable "right" in perpetuity. The sense of entitlement to be included automatically in a system you lot opted out of (& without meeting to meet the criteria everyone else did) in the first place beggers belief, & it's this "take, take, take" mentality which does the Juniors zero favours. "Clubs like Rose, Talbot, Medda, Bo,ness, etc should not be wagged by the tail of LL clubs with no support and aspirations that are wholly unrealistic" No one is saying they should be, they should be wagged by the SFA which - in case you have forgotten - provides your offices, provides your referees, etc: the same way they do so for the LL and HL, except they aren't expecting special treatment constantly the way the Juniors do with more opt out clauses than a lazy department store Santa. As for "unrealistic aspirations", this Saturday may see Spartans reaching the quarter finals of the Scottish Cup proper after stuffing two SPFL sides to get there - a situation the best of the Juniors haven't come close to equalling. Maybe it's because the Juniors are simply too parochial in their expectations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 You usually find in Hearts Scottish Cup games the away support gets a wee boost from Hibees going along, the tourney's been a bit of a sore point with them since 1902... Celtic's is in the tens of thousands every match, Talbot's is in the thousands special occasions only. Major difference. Yes, the same can be said for the bottom tier of the SPFL, but the fact remains their bottom feeders still pull in more for routine matches than the Juniors ever do, & that's what's of greater interest to clubs - not the lick & a promise that "och it's only a hundred for normal games, but I'm sure we'll fill five buses if it's a good cup draw." "as is Talbot's within non league circles" - and that's just it, "non-league circles" up here don't amount to a tin of Heinz. They simply haven't the remotest same clout they do within the English system where they are taken, & a major part of that is because they are divided into two partially competing factions. "My point is this, to block them and the other big supported Junior clubs from the early rounds of the Senior Cup helps no one." But they aren't blocked - all they will have to do is pay the entry fee and meet the requirements same as every other club. Talbot and the rest however seem to think they're such special little snowflakes that having been given four wild cards out of good grace, these are now some inalienable "right" in perpetuity. The sense of entitlement to be included automatically in a system you lot opted out of (& without meeting to meet the criteria everyone else did) in the first place beggers belief, & it's this "take, take, take" mentality which does the Juniors zero favours. "Clubs like Rose, Talbot, Medda, Bo,ness, etc should not be wagged by the tail of LL clubs with no support and aspirations that are wholly unrealistic" No one is saying they should be, they should be wagged by the SFA which - in case you have forgotten - provides your offices, provides your referees, etc: the same way they do so for the LL and HL, except they aren't expecting special treatment constantly the way the Juniors do with more opt out clauses than a lazy department store Santa. As for "unrealistic aspirations", this Saturday may see Spartans reaching the quarter finals of the Scottish Cup proper after stuffing two SPFL sides to get there - a situation the best of the Juniors haven't come close to equalling. Maybe it's because the Juniors are simply too parochial in their expectations? Waffen, so much of that just doesn't make sense, I get that you want us to progress accept and move on, all very positive and commendable, and I do mean that. But some of your argument and counter argument are so petty and nitpicking that I feel you do not help your cause. I never said that people were trying to throw out the Juniors, I responded to a statement that intimated such a move. I never said Talbot have the same support as Celtic. I merely suggested in non league circles they are one of the best supported clubs, it seems you don't even accept that which renders any reasonable debate obsolete. If Hibs supporters boost away gates at Tyncastle in a cup tie, it doesn't make any difference to my point, whether true or not as it will be the same for all visiting clubs. Spartans have done well and good luck to them, but it appears they are driving the LL and the changes to suite their own agenda, which is not about creating a vibrant non league, more to do with getting into the bigger leagues. Yes I get that there should be a ladder, no glass ceiling etc, I agree, I just think that the driving force should be to create a vibrant none league set up first and let clubs find their level there after. Junior clubs like Talbot Bo'ness etc have much to consider and are not in the same position as Spartans. It is not arrogance to consider what they have to be worth keeping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wile E Coyote Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hibs fans sitting in the away end at Tyncstle for cup ties. Ha Ha That is the biggest load of shite I have read on this Forum and that takes some doing. Do you seriously think Hibs fans in this day and age have so much money they have £20 to spare to watch Hearts V Talbot. Anyway it was a Saturday at 3 O Clock, I presume Hibs were playing at this time as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hibs fans sitting in the away end at Tyncstle for cup ties. Ha Ha That is the biggest load of shite I have read on this Forum and that takes some doing. Do you seriously think Hibs fans in this day and age have so much money they have £20 to spare to watch Hearts V Talbot. Anyway it was a Saturday at 3 O Clock, I presume Hibs were playing at this time as well I seem to recollect that Hibs pumped Airdrie that day, 0-6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Waffen, so much of that just doesn't make sense, I get that you want us to progress accept and move on, all very positive and commendable, and I do mean that. But some of your argument and counter argument are so petty and nitpicking that I feel you do not help your cause. I never said that people were trying to throw out the Juniors, I responded to a statement that intimated such a move. I never said Talbot have the same support as Celtic. I merely suggested in non league circles they are one of the best supported clubs, it seems you don't even accept that which renders any reasonable debate obsolete. If Hibs supporters boost away gates at Tyncastle in a cup tie, it doesn't make any difference to my point, whether true or not as it will be the same for all visiting clubs. Spartans have done well and good luck to them, but it appears they are driving the LL and the changes to suite their own agenda, which is not about creating a vibrant non league, more to do with getting into the bigger leagues. Yes I get that there should be a ladder, no glass ceiling etc, I agree, I just think that the driving force should be to create a vibrant none league set up first and let clubs find their level there after. Junior clubs like Talbot Bo'ness etc have much to consider and are not in the same position as Spartans. It is not arrogance to consider what they have to be worth keeping. "I never said Talbot have the same support as Celtic. I merely suggested in non league circles they are one of the best supported clubs" You aren't grasping the point I was making, which is that Celtic's support is largely consistent. I'm sorry, but Talbot may be a "big gate" in Junior terms, but trying to sell them as being a bigger gate than they really are on the basis of the likes of the Hearts match is disingenuous. Wait for Talbot to draw away someone like Strathspey Thistle or even relatively nearby Wigton & Bladnoch - see how many want to turn up then. The point is that if you think it is any sort of dowry or bargaining chip with the rest of Scottish football, it is to risk overstating the case. "Spartans have done well and good luck to them, but it appears they are driving the LL and the changes to suite their own agenda, which is not about creating a vibrant non league, more to do with getting into the bigger leagues." You are aware that Spartans were asked to be on "standby" during the Rangers crisis when it looked like they might have a vacancy needing hastily filled & they told the Cockwomble & co to piss off? (Hardly surprising considering Spartans chairman Craig Graham was central to a number of the tribunals into Rangers behaviour and saw enough SFA/SFL shenanigans first hand to see the wisdom of Groucho Marx's dictum on being invited to join anything...) If Spartans are so desperate to get into the LL, why have they sat back this year & concentrated all resources into the Scottish Cup to the extent they lie fourth in a league that looks already won by Edinburgh City? You are confusing the current regime with the previous slobbergobs of many years back now who were obsessed with SFL entry at any price (up to & including the murder of East Stirlingshire). Of course they want the opportunity of going up, but they aren't keen on doing so until there's a realistic chance of staying up the following season - and if it is at the expense of their academy (even if all it seems to do now is provide great young players for everyone else to pinch!) it appears this is a price they are no longer as willing to contemplate in comparison to yesteryear's ego driven hot heads. In the meantime, they know that being part of a collective of growing stronger non-league clubs underneath the SPFL able to hold their own is an equally worthwhile ambition, as well as helping convince the bottom feeders in the SPFL that relegation into them will not be quite the calamity worthy of the Accidents & Disasters section of the Guinness Book of Records some are already getting themselves into a tizzy about. Just a pity one section of the non-league seems determined to feign seeing conspiracies everywhere as a pretext for staying in a time warp. That is their prerogative, of course, but if they want separate identity, they will have to face up to the fact that will inevitably come at a price. A gift unreciprocated is a gift likely eventually to go unrepeated. Hibs fans sitting in the away end at Tyncstle for cup ties. Ha Ha That is the biggest load of shite I have read on this Forum and that takes some doing. Do you seriously think Hibs fans in this day and age have so much money they have £20 to spare to watch Hearts V Talbot. Anyway it was a Saturday at 3 O Clock, I presume Hibs were playing at this time as well Hate to break it to you, but no Hibs fans would have gone to cheer on Talbot as they're regarded in Reekie as an atypical "Ayrshire Rangers fans without the bus fare" club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wile E Coyote Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hate to break it to you, but no Hibs fans would have gone to cheer on Talbot as they're regarded in Reekie as an atypical "Ayrshire Rangers fans without the bus fare" club. Eh. You are the one who said Hibs fans go to the away end, not me. I am sane so I know no Hibs fan were there. You sir are a mentalist contradicting your own made up points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 "I never said Talbot have the same support as Celtic. I merely suggested in non league circles they are one of the best supported clubs" You aren't grasping the point I was making, which is that Celtic's support is largely consistent. I'm sorry, but Talbot may be a "big gate" in Junior terms, but trying to sell them as being a bigger gate than they really are on the basis of the likes of the Hearts match is disingenuous. Wait for Talbot to draw away someone like Strathspey Thistle or even relatively nearby Wigton & Bladnoch - see how many want to turn up then. The point is that if you think it is any sort of dowry or bargaining chip with the rest of Scottish football, it is to risk overstating the case. "Spartans have done well and good luck to them, but it appears they are driving the LL and the changes to suite their own agenda, which is not about creating a vibrant non league, more to do with getting into the bigger leagues." You are aware that Spartans were asked to be on "standby" during the Rangers crisis when it looked like they might have a vacancy needing hastily filled & they told the Cockwomble & co to piss off? (Hardly surprising considering Spartans chairman Craig Graham was central to a number of the tribunals into Rangers behaviour and saw enough SFA/SFL shenanigans first hand to see the wisdom of Groucho Marx's dictum on being invited to join anything...) If Spartans are so desperate to get into the LL, why have they sat back this year & concentrated all resources into the Scottish Cup to the extent they lie fourth in a league that looks already won by Edinburgh City? You are confusing the current regime with the previous slobbergobs of many years back now who were obsessed with SFL entry at any price (up to & including the murder of East Stirlingshire). Of course they want the opportunity of going up, but they aren't keen on doing so until there's a realistic chance of staying up the following season - and if it is at the expense of their academy (even if all it seems to do now is provide great young players for everyone else to pinch!) it appears this is a price they are no longer as willing to contemplate in comparison to yesteryear's ego driven hot heads. In the meantime, they know that being part of a collective of growing stronger non-league clubs underneath the SPFL able to hold their own is an equally worthwhile ambition, as well as helping convince the bottom feeders in the SPFL that relegation into them will not be quite the calamity worthy of the Accidents & Disasters section of the Guinness Book of Records some are already getting themselves into a tizzy about. Just a pity one section of the non-league seems determined to feign seeing conspiracies everywhere as a pretext for staying in a time warp. That is their prerogative, of course, but if they want separate identity, they will have to face up to the fact that will inevitably come at a price. A gift unreciprocated is a gift likely eventually to go unrepeated. Hate to break it to you, but no Hibs fans would have gone to cheer on Talbot as they're regarded in Reekie as an atypical "Ayrshire Rangers fans without the bus fare" club. How do you know what Hibs fans think of Talbot fans? That is your view no doubt and like all your views skewed in the extreme. I go to Talbot games with a big group and have done for thirty years, none of them have any affinity with Rangers, or Celtic for that matter. Talbot took four bus loads to Port Glasgow last week, hardly a glamour tie, incidentally me and my mates travelled by car as did loads others, so your talk of inconsistency in numbers is way off. I suspect that whatever is said about Talbot in a positive light you will contest, don't know why but you have a clear issue with Talbot. Think we are about done here, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catakoom Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Waffen Thin Mint cor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 How do you know what Hibs fans think of Talbot fans? That is your view no doubt and like all your views skewed in the extreme. I go to Talbot games with a big group and have done for thirty years, none of them have any affinity with Rangers, or Celtic for that matter. Talbot took four bus loads to Port Glasgow last week, hardly a glamour tie, incidentally me and my mates travelled by car as did loads others, so your talk of inconsistency in numbers is way off. I suspect that whatever is said about Talbot in a positive light you will contest, don't know why but you have a clear issue with Talbot. Think we are about done here, don't you? "Talbot took four bus loads to Port Glasgow last week." And this is exactly what I mean about your tendency to make stories up about your support. By the way, if you want a worked example of why the Seniors don't take the Juniors as seriously as you think they ought to, a worked example this very night: http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/220710-culter-v-linlithgow/ Yet again, an utter shambles right at the Juniors door. And you think the rest of Scottish football should stand still until you lot can learn to walk and chew gum at the same time whilst all the while you're boasting you tap dance like Fred Astaire? But enough! It's clear that you & your ilk will remain convinced Scottish football owes you a living because you're here. You're going to be one sorry little set of clubs over the next five years as the rest of it leaves you behind & not caring a rat's ass about your bleatings of "entitlement". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 "Talbot took four bus loads to Port Glasgow last week." And this is exactly what I mean about your tendency to make stories up about your support. By the way, if you want a worked example of why the Seniors don't take the Juniors as seriously as you think they ought to, a worked example this very night: http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/220710-culter-v-linlithgow/ Yet again, an utter shambles right at the Juniors door. And you think the rest of Scottish football should stand still until you lot can learn to walk and chew gum at the same time whilst all the while you're boasting you tap dance like Fred Astaire? But enough! It's clear that you & your ilk will remain convinced Scottish football owes you a living because you're here. You're going to be one sorry little set of clubs over the next five years as the rest of it leaves you behind & not caring a rat's ass about your bleatings of "entitlement". So you don't believe me, or you think four buses is not very impressive? As I said, not much point in debating with you, your mind is made up and anything I say about Talbot and their credentials you dismiss, you clearly have an issue with, bit strange, could understand it if you were a Cumnock fan or something, but you seem to think you know everything about that club but only demonstrate unmitigated ignorance. Therefore any points you make that seem fair regarding integration are rendered obsolete due to the fact that you clearly don't research are not open to reasonable discussion, try hard to come over as a smart Alex and generally open your mouth and let your belly rumble in a regular basis. Hope you find your peace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbaxters Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I have read this debate over the last few days and it's clear that you have reached an impasse. Isa, he makes some valid points but the problem is they are floating around in a sea of daft made up juvenile insults which means most don't take it seriously. However, he has been very complimentary about Talbot earlier in the thread whilst writing from a different viewpoint than black and gold glasses. Auchinleck Talbot are a fantastic Junior club and have nothing to be timid or ashamed about. They are the benchmark as far as on field success goes, and one of a few clubs who are the benchmark off the field. But in the grand scheme of things, on a week to week basis, it's trite to imply that they have something to offer the senior grade but then refuse to do so. I love my team too. I'm a fan now and you and other posters are supporters of the club, but we need to be realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I have read this debate over the last few days and it's clear that you have reached an impasse. Isa, he makes some valid points but the problem is they are floating around in a sea of daft made up juvenile insults which means most don't take it seriously. However, he has been very complimentary about Talbot earlier in the thread whilst writing from a different viewpoint than black and gold glasses. Auchinleck Talbot are a fantastic Junior club and have nothing to be timid or ashamed about. They are the benchmark as far as on field success goes, and one of a few clubs who are the benchmark off the field. But in the grand scheme of things, on a week to week basis, it's trite to imply that they have something to offer the senior grade but then refuse to do so. I love my team too. I'm a fan now and you and other posters are supporters of the club, but we need to be realistic. I agree with all of that post, I admit that Waffen does make some valid points. BTW, I'm with you and have no desire to see Talbot step up. My point was more aimed at those who would castigate us for being realistic and ban us from the Scottish senior cup. I say big Junior clubs bring a lot to that tournament in the early stages. A desire to see a vibrant non league should be the basis to move forward. I think perhaps that was not what drove the LL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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