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Dundee gripped by gaelic fever


Reynard
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How much of the demand for Gaelic sevices is coming from genuine native Gaelic speakers rather than the politically-motivated learners lobby? Most of them are happy enough to use English in formal settings in my experience and use Gaelic as a vernacular rather than a literary language much the same as happens with Scots.

What are the politics you speak of?

As to your other points - I don't know. But most native Gaels aged 45 or over will have been punished for speaking their family and community tongue during their school days. Given the universality of English and the strength of the Scots cringe, it's a wonder we still have communities and kids speaking it. No surprise then that Gaels feel that English is 'natural' or expected in some language domains.

While the aforementioned repression of Gaelic, often physically, has had an impression on the literary output of Gaelic, it has always been a literary tongue and indeed the oldest Gaelic, and Welsh, literature predates English by several hundred years. The oldest classical English lit such as Chaucer is closer to JK Rowling than it is to the first Gaelic classical lit. Is this meant to be an argument against Gaelic roadsigns btw? You should test it in a legal challenge if you're that fazed by it.

Oidhche mhath leat.

Edited by AnCrùbag
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The Nos on here are still being embarassing, what's with all the hatred even towards the Scots accent now? Do people in Liverpool or Newcastle moan that folk speak Geordie or Scouse there? It's local culture and nothing to be ashamed of, what's it with all the self hatred? Who cares? Jesus f**k.

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Many unionists do tend to rail against multicultralism...even if the culture they are denigrating is native.

They cannot understand why everybody else does not think and behave exactly as they do. IMO it's all down to a lack of intelligence and imagination.

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Many unionists do tend to rail against multicultralism...even if the culture they are denigrating is native.

They cannot understand why everybody else does not think and behave exactly as they do. IMO it's all down to a lack of intelligence and imagination.

You could make exactly the same generalisation about many Nationalists.
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What annoys some people when Gaelic is accorded a national rather than regional language status is that there are parts of Scotland where Gaelic has never been the main language and others where it was only briefly so about 1000 years ago. Many would argue that resources should be targeted at core Gaeltacht areas with an agenda driven primarily by native speakers rather than by a politicised learners' lobby.

Very, very few areas of Scotland were never Gaelic speaking. As far south as Dunbar we have names like... Well... Dunbar.

Completely agree with you that the politicisation of the language is detrimental. I don't think it's overly politicised though.

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Very, very few areas of Scotland were never Gaelic speaking. As far south as Dunbar we have names like... Well... Dunbar.

Completely agree with you that the politicisation of the language is detrimental. I don't think it's overly politicised though.

The language Dunbar takes its name from was displaced by early Scots in the time between the end of the Roman occupation and the 10th century. I am not sure it ever spoke Scots Gaelic. What is modern southern Scotland spoke Cumbric, a form of Brythronic Celtic and perhaps other variations of Brythonic. They were Britons. North was Pitctish, which was probably also a Brythonic language. At some point Gaelic arrived from Ireland in the Western Isles, perhaps around the 3rd or 4th century. The languages that combined to form English were spoken by some German tribes used by the Romans but they arrived in "numbers" or at least had a political impact in around the mid 5th century. These languages moved north and displaced the old Briton languages. At around the same time Scots Gaelic become increasingly dominant in the highlands and moving south.

Here is a map estimated to be before the arrival of the Angles (500ish AD)

Here is the rough breakup around 1000-1100 AD. Over the following 400 years Scots become the dominant language in the lowlands (including East Coast up to near Aberdeen).

And after that Gaelic was displaced from much of the Highlands. Outside of the Highlands it was only a dominant language for a few hundred years and then not for all the country.

Gaelic is as much an import as Scots (English). But then again Brythonic probably displaced earlier languages when the Celt culture spread into Scotland, we will never know.

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The language Dunbar takes its name from was displaced by early Scots in the time between the end of the Roman occupation and the 10th century. I am not sure it ever spoke Scots Gaelic. What is modern southern Scotland spoke Cumbric, a form of Brythronic Celtic and perhaps other variations of Brythonic. They were Britons. North was Pitctish, which was probably also a Brythonic language. At some point Gaelic arrived from Ireland in the Western Isles, perhaps around the 3rd or 4th century. The languages that combined to form English were spoken by some German tribes used by the Romans but they arrived in "numbers" or at least had a political impact in around the mid 5th century. These languages moved north and displaced the old Briton languages. At around the same time Scots Gaelic become increasingly dominant in the highlands and moving south.

Here is a map estimated to be before the arrival of the Angles (500ish AD)

Here is the rough breakup around 1000-1100 AD. Over the following 400 years Scots become the dominant language in the lowlands (including East Coast up to near Aberdeen).

And after that Gaelic was displaced from much of the Highlands. Outside of the Highlands it was only a dominant language for a few hundred years and then not for all the country.

Gaelic is as much an import as Scots (English). But then again Brythonic probably displaced earlier languages when the Celt culture spread into Scotland, we will never know.

Dunbar is without doubt a Q-Celtic, or Gaelic name, and not a P-Celtic Brythonic name. You can tell from the "Dun" which comes from "Dùn".

And most likely Brythonic did displace earlier languages. Interestingly on Shetland and Orkney, as well as other places probably, there's still a couple of places with neolithic names. "Yell" for example.

Regardless, we should still promote Gaelic. I don't see how there's a contradiction.

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There's no evidence to support a 'Gaelic invasion' from Ireland. Recent archaelogical evidence (see Scotland's History by Fiona Watson) points to Dal Riada being settled up to 500 years earlier than previously thought. I'm sure there's more on this in Stuart Hardy's 'New History of the Picts'.

I'd go further and say that there is NO part of Scotland without a Gaelic-speaking past to some extent. Like we've seen, the Northern Isles were first settled by Gaelic speaking monks and there's evidence right down to the borders with even some names in the north of England.

People come and people go and anyway, no-one is arguing that Scotland is 'pure' or that we should all speak Gaelic. Gaels though and its many non-speaking supporters should have the right to use it or learn it. And, given the vast historical effort expended on eradicating it, I think we're due something for our taxes.

Signs are not the most important fight but if they go someway to normalising our tongue then good.

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There's no evidence to support a 'Gaelic invasion' from Ireland. Recent archaelogical evidence (see Scotland's History by Fiona Watson) points to Dal Riada being settled up to 500 years earlier than previously thought. I'm sure there's more on this in Stuart Hardy's 'New History of the Picts'.

I'd go further and say that there is NO part of Scotland without a Gaelic-speaking past to some extent.

Classic hypernationalism. Orthodox history is all wrong, obscure theories are in fact the truth and everyone is really Gaelic.

the Northern Isles were first settled by Gaelic speaking monks and

If by the Northern Isles you are talking about Orkney and Shetland then you are talking out your bum.

You might be talking about Iceland but then it is a very very vague way of describing it.

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Classic hypernationalism. Orthodox history is all wrong, obscure theories are in fact the truth and everyone is really Gaelic.

If by the Northern Isles you are talking about Orkney and Shetland then you are talking out your bum.

You might be talking about Iceland but then it is a very very vague way of describing it.

I hate this line more: "Scotland was never Gaelic". That's full-on BritNat

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Classic hypernationalism. Orthodox history is all wrong, obscure theories are in fact the truth and everyone is really Gaelic.

If by the Northern Isles you are talking about Orkney and Shetland then you are talking out your bum.

You might be talking about Iceland but then it is a very very vague way of describing it.

Most of Scotland was Gaelic at one point there's no denying it. Hardly hyper-nationalism.

There's also truth in the Dal Riata thing. The idea that it was a simple case of the gaels "coming over from Ireland" is outdated. Most historians reckon it was an area of backwards and forwards migration for hundreds of years.

Not so sure about the Northern Isles but I know the Picts were there for some time.

What is it you're saying about Iceland?

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Don't have a problem with protecting it as part of our nation's history at all. It doesn't need inordinate amounts of cash to nurture and promote it though. Surely we've presently got bigger priorities.

As a proportion of Scotland's spending how much do you think Gaelic deserves and what percentage would be inordinate?

We will always have bigger priorities. But the "schools and hospitals" argument doesn't really get us anywhere as you can't list societal priorities 1-100. For example I think Gaelic is more important than trident.

Edited by invergowrie arab
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Classic hypernationalism. Orthodox history is all wrong, obscure theories are in fact the truth and everyone is really Gaelic.

If by the Northern Isles you are talking about Orkney and Shetland then you are talking out your bum.

You might be talking about Iceland but then it is a very very vague way of describing it.

Go and find out for yourself. Yon monks from Ireland and Scotland made it far and wide - not only the Northern Isles but the Faroes and Iceland too apparently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papar#Papar_in_the_Northern_Isles

Also, an academic text on Celtic placenames in Orkney.

Is it really that hard to accept that no Gaelic speakers ever settled on Orkney or Shetland at any point in the past 2000 years and left their mark? Or are you blinded by your own 'hypernationalism'?

More on the Papar - even the Norse sagas make reference to them apparently:

In Orkney place names are now practically all Norse in origin and number many thousand that are derivatives or corruptions of original Old Norse names. These old Norwegian words are found mingled with some words of Celtic origin and occasional Scottish ones introduced later. Geneticist Professor David Goldstein from University College London led a fifteen month genetic study which formed the basis of a five part BBC documentary that looked at the Viking heritage remaining in the areas of the Northern (Norðreyjar) and Southern Isles (Suðreyjar). High concentrations of Norwegian genetic heritage were found.

An interesting additional factor in the story of the Celts and Vikings is that of the Papar. They were early Gaelic monks whose existence is proven by archaeology and also recorded in historical Icelandic sources, the earliest of which is the Íslendingabók (The Book of Icelanders) written between 1122 and 1133. The later Landnámabók (Icelandic book of Settlements) points to how when the Norwegians started settling Iceland in 874 AD they found these monks already there. There are examples of the Papar influence in the Northern Isles as seen by the island names of Papa Westray and Papa Stronsay in Orkney and the districts in Shetland with the name Paplay or Papplay. In islands of the Outer Hebrides there are those baring the name in Gaelic of Pabaigh.

Basically, we could argue history all day but you have yet to provide evidence that Gaelic, even in the mouths of monks, never made it to the Northern Isles. You only seem to bristle at something that may challenge you BritNat worldview? Or am I being unkind?

Edited by AnCrùbag
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Go and find out for yourself. Yon monks from Ireland and Scotland made it far and wide - not only the Northern Isles but the Faroes and Iceland too apparently.

Here is what you originally said.

the Northern Isles were first settled by Gaelic speaking monks and

Since you have confirmed you meant Orkney and Shetland then I can confirm you are an ignorant buffoon.

Skara Brae

Now you will try to back track and go "but but but what I really meant was.... but you dont understand how clever I am .....but but that was not" ..... every country has them. Clowns who are sloppy thinkers, credulously believe fringe theories that fit their hypernationalism and always wallowing in a mythologised past.

Is it really that hard to accept that no Gaelic speakers ever settled on Orkney or Shetland at any point

And off course being too thick to read what was written so attacking strawmen. (The first rebuttal in Brigadoon's head will be to go at me for raising strawmen).

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