topcat(The most tip top) Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Has Gaelic ever produced any culture significant enough to be widely translated like Voltaire, Dante, Goethe, Confucius or Cervantes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverSinging Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Has Gaelic ever produced any culture significant enough to be widely translated like Voltaire, Dante, Goethe, Confucius or Cervantes? Why? I'm guessing that you're trying to suggest that Scottish Gaelic culture is somehow inferior to the cultures that produced these men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Here is what you originally said. Since you have confirmed you meant Orkney and Shetland then I can confirm you are an ignorant buffoon. Skara Brae Now you will try to back track and go "but but but what I really meant was.... but you dont understand how clever I am .....but but that was not" ..... every country has them. Clowns who are sloppy thinkers, credulously believe fringe theories that fit their hypernationalism and always wallowing in a mythologised past. And off course being too thick to read what was written so attacking strawmen. (The first rebuttal in Brigadoon's head will be to go at me for raising strawmen). I accept that 'first settled' was wrong. I'm still waiting on any evidence for any of your other claims esp your point at #75 about 'orthodox' histories. Re. Gaelic in East Lothian - I spoke to a local - Haddington - member of the Scottish Placenames Society some years ago who had collected a couple hundred Gaelic names in EL. Many were minor - aspects of fields or farms - but some significant ones still exist - Drem, Dunbar, Gullane, Ballencrieff (spelling?) and Garvald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Has Gaelic ever produced any culture significant enough to be widely translated like Voltaire, Dante, Goethe, Confucius or Cervantes? Ossian? Apart from that, I guess we really are inferior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Dunbar The name Dunbar has Brythonic roots and means approximately 'summit-fort', which gives an indication to its origins http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfpqfwt_cLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Ossian? Ossian was most likely a forgery. Was it ever in Gaelic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverSinging Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Regardless, Gaelic was the majority language in most of Scotland for a long period and at least a large minority for a while elsewhere. Even if it wasn't why would that mean that Gaelic shouldn't be promoted in the modern day? We've got an ancient language unique to Scotland that's an interesting part of the culture. Why not preserve it? Oh and still no answer from Topcat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Ossian? Apart from that, I guess we really are inferior. I'll read it and get back to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I've downloaded it and it's immediately apparent from the introduction that there was no such person as Ossian. The idea that McPherson has "translated" it from an ancient source is either a literary device or a literary hoax. I think I'll read it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Why? I'm guessing that you're trying to suggest that Scottish Gaelic culture is somehow inferior to the cultures that produced these men? Actually it was more a practical point. If there are no monoglot Gaelic speakers left and, as appears to me, no significant literary legacy left behind then what would learning Gaelic allow an English Speaker to do that They can't do already? It seems madness to spend time learning Gaelic that one could spend learning French or Mandarin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Actually it was more a practical point. If there are no monoglot Gaelic speakers left and, as appears to me, no significant literary legacy left behind then what would learning Gaelic allow an English Speaker to do that They can't do already? It seems madness to spend time learning Gaelic that one could spend learning French or Mandarin. I do take the point. But you don't speak Gaelic though. So, how can you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRob72 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 As a proportion of Scotland's spending how much do you think Gaelic deserves and what percentage would be inordinate? We will always have bigger priorities. But the "schools and hospitals" argument doesn't really get us anywhere as you can't list societal priorities 1-100. For example I think Gaelic is more important than trident. Tbh yes, I was thinking more on a educational level in schools, £25m per annum seems quite a lot given current austerity measures across regional spending, for a language so sparsely used. By all means include learning about the Gaels and their language in the curriculum, but I think it could be better spent in breaking current barriers within the education system. We talk about being a modern inclusive Scotland, but separate our kids at such an early important stage of their development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Tbh yes, I was thinking more on a educational level in schools, £25m per annum seems quite a lot given current austerity measures across regional spending, for a language so sparsely used. By all means include learning about the Gaels and their language in the curriculum, but I think it could be better spent in breaking current barriers within the education system. We talk about being a modern inclusive Scotland, but separate our kids at such an early important stage of their development. They'll speak English though. Glasgow's Gaelic school is good. Folk want to go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I do take the point. But you don't speak Gaelic though. So, how can you know? That logic leads into a sewer of epistemological nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRob72 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 They'll speak English though. Glasgow's Gaelic school is good. Folk want to go there. How many pupils go there and what age range does it cater for, just out of interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Link for public domain digital versions of the "Ossian" book on project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8161 This is weird stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The language is a bit like the King James Bible but the content is reminiscent of Tolkien's songs "translated" from Elvish and Dwarven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Re. Gaelic in East Lothian - I spoke to a local - Haddington - member of the Scottish Placenames Society some years ago who had collected a couple hundred Gaelic names in EL. Many were minor - aspects of fields or farms - but some significant ones still exist - Drem, Dunbar, Gullane, Ballencrieff (spelling?) and Garvald. But what impact does that have on people's lives 1000 years later? Somewhere between exceedingly slim and none, I would have thought. The reality is that after only a few generations, the Gaelic speaking Scottish royal family went native in Lothian post-Malcolm Canmore and Queen Margaret and adopted Anglo-Saxon derived speech, which subsequently had a higher status in Scotland than it did in England where Norman French very much held sway post-1066. Chaucer was mentioned earlier in the thread. Try comparing the original lingo of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales with that of Barbour's The Brus and odds on you'll find the latter a lot easier to read because it's significantly closer to modern English as well as modern Scots. That's an angle that you will never see on a BBC history documentary, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to fit the preferred narrative in a Scottish angle either because middle class Scotland is still fixated with the whole phoney Highlands romanticism craze started by the arch-Tory reactionary Sir Walter Scott. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 But what impact does that have on people's lives 1000 years later? Somewhere between exceedingly slim and none, I would have thought. The reality is that after only a few generations, the Gaelic speaking Scottish royal family went native in Lothian post-Malcolm Canmore and Queen Margaret and adopted Anglo-Saxon derived speech, which subsequently had a higher status in Scotland than it did in England where Norman French very much held sway post-1066. Chaucer was mentioned earlier in the thread. Try comparing the original lingo of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales with that of Barbour's The Brus and odds on you'll find the latter a lot easier to read because it's significantly closer to modern English as well as modern Scots. That's an angle that you will never see on a BBC history documentary, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to fit the preferred narrative in a Scottish angle either because middle class Scotland is still fixated with the whole phoney Highlands romanticism craze started by the arch-Tory reactionary Sir Walter Scott. Scott may have played a bigger part than others in the rise of highland romanticism but he didn't start it. James McPherson's Ossian fraud predates Scott's birth by a decade. Scott declared himself to have been a big fan of Ossian during his teenage years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverSinging Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Actually it was more a practical point. If there are no monoglot Gaelic speakers left and, as appears to me, no significant literary legacy left behind then what would learning Gaelic allow an English Speaker to do that They can't do already? It seems madness to spend time learning Gaelic that one could spend learning French or Mandarin. It allows them to get in touch with Scottish Gaelic culture to a much greater degree than they would if they only spoke English. Then there's all the benefits that learning any language brings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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