League Vacancies

[Bankies Alive]

Fans of current LL clubs will obviously stick up for the league in which their clubs reside,I get that.

What does irk me is that having waited for years to get a pyramid system in place the SFA have made a complete and utter arse of it!

It shouldn't really have come as a surprise but I think they`ve surpassed themselves with this one.

I`m in no way sticking up for the SJFA in all of this as they are culpable too but as I said the buck stops with the SFA.

[stanley]

Fans of current LL clubs will obviously stick up for the league in which their clubs reside,I get that.

What does irk me is that having waited for years to get a pyramid system in place the SFA have made a complete and utter arse of it!

It shouldn't really have come as a surprise but I think they`ve surpassed themselves with this one.

I`m in no way sticking up for the SJFA in all of this as they are culpable too but as I said the buck stops with the SFA.

What would you do to get the junior clubs involved in the pyramid?

[Simplistic]

Bankies, the blame lies at the door of Tom Johnstone, who worked on the pyramid for 2 years. He didn't engage his clubs then put thinly veiled threats out to any club interested.

When there SFA confirmed the pyramid was going ahead there were 20ish Junior clubs who put there name forward which Tom had to reluctantly pass on. Why didn't those 20 apply? I don't know. I'm fairly sure being told they'd start at the bottom of the juniors if relegated didn't help.

The pyramid isn't ideal, however it's the Juniors who are holding out, not anyone else. Having been the official for the Spartans Junior side, I know only too well the way these things are dealt with. I don't blame the clubs or the SFA. I believe the reason there are no Junior sides in the pyramid system is down to the Junior representation on the pyramid working group (again, for 2 years).

As for this nonsense about clubs with no fans. Dalkeith played a home game recently which had a direct impact on their promotion chances and played in front of less than 60 people. So what, if they applied if welcome them (if licenced) and they could use the new platform to further grow in their community.

There are a number of points about the Lowland League you can be easily negative about however it's the people who can push for the positives that will ultimately make the biggest difference in our game. I welcome as many forward thinking and aspirational individuals and clubs as possible. Those 'but it's aye been that way'ers we can do without

[Sergeant Wilson]

Bankies, the blame lies at the door of Tom Johnstone, who worked on the pyramid for 2 years. He didn't engage his clubs then put thinly veiled threats out to any club interested.

When there SFA confirmed the pyramid was going ahead there were 20ish Junior clubs who put there name forward which Tom had to reluctantly pass on. Why didn't those 20 apply? I don't know. I'm fairly sure being told they'd start at the bottom of the juniors if relegated didn't help.

The pyramid isn't ideal, however it's the Juniors who are holding out, not anyone else. Having been the official for the Spartans Junior side, I know only too well the way these things are dealt with. I don't blame the clubs or the SFA. I believe the reason there are no Junior sides in the pyramid system is down to the Junior representation on the pyramid working group (again, for 2 years).

As for this nonsense about clubs with no fans. Dalkeith played a home game recently which had a direct impact on their promotion chances and played in front of less than 60 people. So what, if they applied if welcome them (if licenced) and they could use the new platform to further grow in their community.

There are a number of points about the Lowland League you can be easily negative about however it's the people who can push for the positives that will ultimately make the biggest difference in our game. I welcome as many forward thinking and aspirational individuals and clubs as possible. Those 'but it's aye been that way'ers we can do without

Fair enough, but Bankies Alive also has a point. Academy clubs that don't actually represent a community are not a good option to increase the numbers or credibility of the league.

[LongTimeLurker]

Bankies, the blame lies at the door of Tom Johnstone, who worked on the pyramid for 2 years. He didn't engage his clubs then put thinly veiled threats out to any club interested.

Tom Johnstone was only able to get away with that, because it suited the narrow self-interest agendas of a sizable portion of the full members of the SFA. If the SFA had been serious about a genuine pyramid, step one in the process would have been to end the practice of having separate grades run by affiliated national associations. The SFA as the FIFA recognised national association holds all the power, there would be no need to even negotiate on this.

The three junior regions could have been told to affiliate directly in a similar manner to the EoS, SoS and Highland Leagues with an SFA committee set up to run the junior cup, which is pretty much the only significant thing that the SJFA actually does for its members given most of the routine stuff is done by the three regions.

Once the extra layer of national level blazers had been dispensed with, steps could then have been taken to come up with a more rational way to run things for the greater benefit of all clubs rather than setting up something that primarily suited the self-interest agendas of the existing full members in the HL and EoS.

[bendan]

What would you do to get the junior clubs involved in the pyramid?

Indeed. They clearly aren't going to cooperate. I don't see why that should prevent a structure being built that doesn't include them. I think it's great that new teams are being created. Isn't that exactly what was going on in the late 19th and early 20th century? We can only begin to judge if it's a success or not after a decade or two.

[RabidAl]

Fair enough, but Bankies Alive also has a point. Academy clubs that don't actually represent a community are not a good option to increase the numbers or credibility of the league.

If you're referring to Edusport then that might be a good argument, but the likes of AMsoccer could expect to build a decent fan base within the Cupar area if they managed to get a local ground up to scratch. There'd be credibility for the LL in having a new club from that area. It looks like the LL may still be short of its 16-team quota for next season, so this may be an ongoing issue, and it will likely then apply to EoS, etc going forward.

Bankies, the blame lies at the door of Tom Johnstone, who worked on the pyramid for 2 years. He didn't engage his clubs then put thinly veiled threats out to any club interested.

When there SFA confirmed the pyramid was going ahead there were 20ish Junior clubs who put there name forward which Tom had to reluctantly pass on. Why didn't those 20 apply? I don't know. I'm fairly sure being told they'd start at the bottom of the juniors if relegated didn't help.

The pyramid isn't ideal, however it's the Juniors who are holding out, not anyone else. Having been the official for the Spartans Junior side, I know only too well the way these things are dealt with. I don't blame the clubs or the SFA. I believe the reason there are no Junior sides in the pyramid system is down to the Junior representation on the pyramid working group (again, for 2 years).

As for this nonsense about clubs with no fans. Dalkeith played a home game recently which had a direct impact on their promotion chances and played in front of less than 60 people. So what, if they applied if welcome them (if licenced) and they could use the new platform to further grow in their community.

There are a number of points about the Lowland League you can be easily negative about however it's the people who can push for the positives that will ultimately make the biggest difference in our game. I welcome as many forward thinking and aspirational individuals and clubs as possible. Those 'but it's aye been that way'ers we can do without

I would think none of the junior clubs applied because of the stringent criteria on licencing for clubs. They would have recognised that two seasons was not a lot of time to get themselves up to scratch, with the consequence of failing to do so (as you point out) being punted out of the league - to play where? We might yet see the wisdom of that this summer if current LL clubs haven't been licenced at the latest meeting.

[Burnie_man]

Bankies, the blame lies at the door of Tom Johnstone, who worked on the pyramid for 2 years. He didn't engage his clubs then put thinly veiled threats out to any club interested.

He was absolutely culpable, but he wasn't the one putting a half-cocked plan together or giving 6 weeks notice.

Alongside TJ stands Regan and the SFA, along with a cabal of EoS clubs who were quite happy to see Junior clubs sit on the sidelines. i don't agree often with LTL above, but he has it spot on in this instance.

We now have the prospect of clubs being kicked out due to licencing failure, more applications from "non clubs", and leading clubs in the prospective LL feeder league packing it in and moving over to the Juniors.

It was called a lemon, and that's exactly what it is, but I agree that there is no point going over all this again. I just hope someone sees sense.

[stanley]

He was absolutely culpable, but he wasn't the one putting a half-cocked plan together or giving 6 weeks notice.

Alongside TJ stands Regan and the SFA, along with a cabal of EoS clubs who were quite happy to see Junior clubs sit on the sidelines. i don't agree often with LTL above, but he has it spot on in this instance.

We now have the prospect of clubs being kicked out due to licencing failure, more applications from "non clubs", and leading clubs in the prospective LL feeder league packing it in and moving over to the Juniors.

It was called a lemon, and that's exactly what it is, but I agree that there is no point going over all this again. I just hope someone sees sense.

We don't even know what the licensing decisions are yet. There may well be 16 clubs in the Lowland League next season. Everyone is guessing until we find out the outcome of the decisions.

You're saying "leading clubs...packing it in and moving over to the juniors" as if there have been more than one and it's some kind of trend. One club has applied for the juniors. Maybe more will do the same in the future but it's too early to talk about "leading clubs".

[Burnie_man]

We don't even know what the licensing decisions are yet. There may well be 16 clubs in the Lowland League next season. Everyone is guessing until we find out the outcome of the decisions.

You're saying "leading clubs...packing it in and moving over to the juniors" as if there have been more than one and it's some kind of trend. One club has applied for the juniors. Maybe more will do the same in the future but it's too early to talk about "leading clubs".

Well, the licencing decisions were made over a week ago but no announcement? I heard Vale of Leithen were on dodgy ground, and I'd be surprised Lochburn is in any shape to be licenced at the moment, we'll see.

A club who have been senior for 34 years who lost out on the EoSFL Championship on goal difference chooses the Juniors as their future and not the LL, that would say to me there is something inherently wrong.

[RabidAl]

^ It says to me that the LL has drained the EoS of its best clubs and that Easthouses cannot afford the £40k+ (quoted in the Strollers article, above) on improvements to get back to that level of competition.

[stanley]

I think it's very unlikely that all four unlicensed clubs will have failed to gain a licence and we've heard nothing from any of those four clubs so far regarding the decision. It's all guesswork until there is an official announcement. As things stand, the Lowland League needs six more licensed clubs with four unlicensed clubs currently in the league and four more rumoured to have applied. I think the league will be doing all they can to have 16 clubs for next season and it won't reflect too well on the pyramid if they failed to have 16 licensed clubs.

There are certainly problems for the East of Scotland League. The league has lost a lot of members in the past couple of years and has clearly declined a lot. The premier division has basically become an Edinburgh league with a couple of other teams in it. It is probably worrying for the league to lose Easthouses Lily but we don't have any idea what the other clubs future plans are. Some of them are definitely going for a licence. It's possible that you end up with a situation where a few clubs gain a licence and the rest leave the league for the juniors (or elsewhere) but I'm not sure if the borders clubs would want to go for that option because there are no borders clubs currently in the juniors. Certainly, clubs like Ormiston or the Edinburgh clubs might consider it.

Things are a bit of a mess now. I have no idea what the answer is. On the one hand, when some of the clubs in the EoS/SoS get licensed, at least we'll have the possibility of promotion/relegation between tiers five and six. On the other hand, the more that the pyramid develops as it currently is in terms of league structure, the less of a place for the junior leagues. With EoS/SoS at tier six, I don't see any way for the junior leagues to now be incorporated into the system. It would take a complete re-think (at the very least, below the Highland/Lowland leagues) for anything to change in the future. The other real issue is if any of the junior clubs even want to be part of the pyramid. Something very drastic would have to change here in terms of the structure of the leagues and the attitudes of juniors clubs in general for them to ever be part of the pyramid. I think everyone who is pro-pyramid would want the junior clubs involved.

The only possible thing that I can think of that could have worked is for the SFA (assuming they have that power) to have merged the juniors and seniors and go for a north/west/east structure. If the SPFL clubs insisted upon only two leagues at level five then I suppose they'd have had to do that but at least have a north/west/east structure at tier six. Then you have some kind of system like they do in England for promotion from tier nine into tier eight. Clubs have to finish in the top three (or whatever position is chosen to go down to) and then they can apply for promotion. They then have to meet the relevant ground criteria to be eligible for promotion (or, in this case, have a licence). The distinction would be gone between juniors and seniors and there wouldn't be any arguments over the quality of each club. Maybe the juniors clubs would still refuse to apply for promotion to the SPFL but attitudes might change over time. You might end up with a difficult situation where very few clubs are applying for promotion but at least the option would be open to every club and they'd know what position they have to finish in to achieve promotion (or to get into the promotion playoffs).

[LongTimeLurker]

If it can be reported in a Borders newspaper that Coldstream got their licence OK, it does seem a bit odd that we have heard nothing elsewhere. Is it possible that there could be an appeals process that first has to unfold?

[Burnie_man]

I think it's very unlikely that all four unlicensed clubs will have failed to gain a licence and we've heard nothing from any of those four clubs so far regarding the decision. It's all guesswork until there is an official announcement. As things stand, the Lowland League needs six more licensed clubs with four unlicensed clubs currently in the league and four more rumoured to have applied. I think the league will be doing all they can to have 16 clubs for next season and it won't reflect too well on the pyramid if they failed to have 16 licensed clubs.

There are certainly problems for the East of Scotland League. The league has lost a lot of members in the past couple of years and has clearly declined a lot. The premier division has basically become an Edinburgh league with a couple of other teams in it. It is probably worrying for the league to lose Easthouses Lily but we don't have any idea what the other clubs future plans are. Some of them are definitely going for a licence. It's possible that you end up with a situation where a few clubs gain a licence and the rest leave the league for the juniors (or elsewhere) but I'm not sure if the borders clubs would want to go for that option because there are no borders clubs currently in the juniors. Certainly, clubs like Ormiston or the Edinburgh clubs might consider it.

Things are a bit of a mess now. I have no idea what the answer is. On the one hand, when some of the clubs in the EoS/SoS get licensed, at least we'll have the possibility of promotion/relegation between tiers five and six. On the other hand, the more that the pyramid develops as it currently is in terms of league structure, the less of a place for the junior leagues. With EoS/SoS at tier six, I don't see any way for the junior leagues to now be incorporated into the system. It would take a complete re-think (at the very least, below the Highland/Lowland leagues) for anything to change in the future. The other real issue is if any of the junior clubs even want to be part of the pyramid. Something very drastic would have to change here in terms of the structure of the leagues and the attitudes of juniors clubs in general for them to ever be part of the pyramid. I think everyone who is pro-pyramid would want the junior clubs involved.

The only possible thing that I can think of that could have worked is for the SFA (assuming they have that power) to have merged the juniors and seniors and go for a north/west/east structure. If the SPFL clubs insisted upon only two leagues at level five then I suppose they'd have had to do that but at least have a north/west/east structure at tier six. Then you have some kind of system like they do in England for promotion from tier nine into tier eight. Clubs have to finish in the top three (or whatever position is chosen to go down to) and then they can apply for promotion. They then have to meet the relevant ground criteria to be eligible for promotion (or, in this case, have a licence). The distinction would be gone between juniors and seniors and there wouldn't be any arguments over the quality of each club. Maybe the juniors clubs would still refuse to apply for promotion to the SPFL but attitudes might change over time. You might end up with a difficult situation where very few clubs are applying for promotion but at least the option would be open to every club and they'd know what position they have to finish in to achieve promotion (or to get into the promotion playoffs).

All fair points.

We're a million miles away from the Juniors getting involved, and the likelihood of them doing so lessens with every passing day. The SJFA will never accept being a feeder to the HL/LL, they would want parity as a starting point if they ever showed interest.

What we'll end up with is a so-called Pyramid that ends at HL/LL level, with a handful of clubs applying every season to get in if there is a vacancy.

Maybe it needs SPFL clubs to set the agenda and insist on a strong LL with Junior involvement, otherwise they pull up the drawbridge again.

[Cicero]

Fundamentally what is wrong is that the area that the LL and the HL cover are too big to be an attractive proposition for any of the junior clubs. I was dreading AM soccer being accepted into the league as I feel we are at our limit for travelling now. A possibility of a team from north Fife in the Lowland League would just be a frightening for us.

I see the next step being further regionalisation. The SPFL clubs are keeping their grip on power and status by saying "join us if you can put up with the long away midweek matches.". The "prize money" that they get for participating in the league may cover the cost of travelling but I feel it could be put to better use.

I would like to see a top two national league with 24 clubs, then regionalised into LL and HL style conference divisions with perhaps 16 teams each and then further regionalisation below that "junior style".

[HibeeJibee]

I don't think that having a southern feeder stretching from the Solway and Tweed to the Tay is optimal but the SFL clubs were always insisting on their nationwide feeder and settling on 2 regions was a compromise... Add to that the use of licensing as a minimum standard and you have the current set-up. Even if LL gets up to 16 clubs next season, which I hope it will given 16 is the target and the league will be entering its 3rd season and already has 14, there will presumably still be fewer licensed clubs in the southern area than in the northern (even if you add the licensed Juniors plus Coldstream)? Additionally problematic.

Incidentally - I was at the South Challenge Cup final today and in the programme piece with the Civil Service assistant manager, which presumably was written some period in advance before compilation/printing/etc., it says they expect their licence to be granted "before the start of next season".

My particular local paper only actually mentions Coldstream in a one-liner: "Their new boss [former Gala Fairydean Rovers Amateurs manager Grant Davidson] believes the club is a big draw, especially now that it has been granted an SFA licence". Their website/twitter/etc. doesn't say anything either.

Easthouses leaving the pyramid for the Juniors would be embarrassing and regrettable but the test would be whether that's a one-off, or whether more clubs followed suit. It could be the exception which proves the rule.

What can't be denied is that the current situation has successfully created a pyramid for Senior football, in fairly short order, but not a pyramid for all of Scottish football. That needs the Juniors.

EOS League is in a torrid state having shrunk from 26 clubs to 20 to 17 and may well shrink again. Which puts its 2-division format in peril too.

[parsforlife]

I cannot see how we'll see a reduction in the number of clubs playing nationally. It's bonkers to suggest league 1 clubs should be playing regionally and I've no idea league 2 clubs are ever going to be convinced to go regional on their own(which would mean they would end up in HL/LL) even if tier 5 was to be absorbed into the spfl how are we meant to get a vote through that would see the prize money currently split between 10 clubs to go between at least 42?

[Cicero]

I cannot see how we'll see a reduction in the number of clubs playing nationally. It's bonkers to suggest league 1 clubs should be playing regionally and I've no idea league 2 clubs are ever going to be convinced to go regional on their own(which would mean they would end up in HL/LL) even if tier 5 was to be absorbed into the spfl how are we meant to get a vote through that would see the prize money currently split between 10 clubs to go between at least 42?

Why? Most of the clubs are part-time and money is tight. It is being wasted on long bus journeys and compensating players for having to leave their day jobs early to go on midweek trips to some away matches.

Part time clubs should be playing regional football.

[HibeeJibee]

In fairness I'd be against regionalising SPFL1, there should be a national platform for part-time clubs and having only 20-odd would squeeze them out.

This past season you'd also be talking about fairly 'big' clubs like Morton, Dunfermline and Ayr playing in regional football which would seem odd.

[parsforlife]

Because the size of those clubs doesn't justify it, league 1 consistently has full time clubs with the pt clubs paying wages that are far more than 'a wee bonus'.