League Vacancies

[surely not!]

So from that list and what the junior critics have said looks like Strollers and Wanderers with decades of history are a shoe in.

What's changed your mind LTL that it's good St.Cuthberts have went for it given at one point you were dead against the old eosfl and sosfl teams forming a LL.

He hasn't- the line about it being good was a quote he used from another thread.

I believe that best case scenario is to leave it at 14 then bring in a couple of other teams once the feeder system is sorted so that true relegation and promotion can occur. However, if an spfl team gets relegated to the LL there will need to be a viable league to compete in in terms of number of games and dripping from 36 to 26 is far too big a drop. It'll need 16 teams ASAP and therefore the best all round candidates for the leagues 'credibility' won't necessarily be involved

[LongTimeLurker]

What's changed your mind LTL that it's good St.Cuthberts have went for it given at one point you were dead against the old eosfl and sosfl teams forming a LL.

That comment was by the guy that posted in the other thread, so haven't really changed my mind about anything. I think three clubs from Kirkcudbrightshire would be at least two too many, so St Cuthberts Wanderers should be asked to play their way in. Out of what appears to be on offer, I think Cumbernauld Colts are the only real shoo in. They are a huge well-organised community club that has the resources to be the primary tenant of Broadwood. Think they would soon give Spartans and your own club a run for their money for the end-of-season shot at an SPFL place.

CSS to me are a bit like the Uni teams, do they really belong at this level when they represent a profession or campus rather than a community? For me, the answer is no, but respect the argument that they should be able to play their way in, so certainly wouldn't try to block them from future entry on the field of play. Edusport is an absurd concept, but they appear to have Regan's backing, so I suspect they may get in even though I'd place them dead last in desirability amongst the applicants. Being based in the west probably helps their cause.

I find AMsoccer a bit intriguing. If Austin McPhee really did do an effective marketing job to get 1500 out to a Cupar Hearts quarter final in the Amateur Cup and 3000 along to Hampden for the final (better phrase carefully if Isa Goudie is lurking) that's better than most top junior superleague clubs can manage nowadays in the "Holy Grail". If they have realistic plans in place to quickly relocate to Duffus Park in Cupar they would be my second choice, but I would definitely insist on a name change.

So in summary, if all the existing clubs keep their place and Edinburgh City fail in the playoffs I would add Cumbernauld Colts and AMsoccer, because I suspect they are desperate to get up to 16 clubs ASAP, so they can have 36 guaranteed league fixtures in line with what happens in the lower tiers of the SPFL based on the league and a sectional league cup.

[calmac25]

I agree with LTL that cumbernauld should be a shoe in and would expect them to have similar success to EK.

For me edusports are the least appealing and agree that CSS could play their way in.

Reading the article about austin macphee it sounds like he should make peace with cupar hearts and amalgamate

St Cuthbert wanderers I feel shouldn't be discounted. The league has been built around clubs of a similar size with average crowds of around 100 so they shouldn't be disadvantaged just because they have near neighbours in the league

[Stu]

FWIW I asked the Saints boss if they were going for the Lowland League and he said it wasn't something the club had discussed. That was back in January so their position could have changed or he might not have been told about it.

I don't think they have too much to do to get up to the standard (might already be there), however it would be a bit surreal if they got in after finishing third or fourth in the South of Scotland while the league winners could miss out on a promotion play-off if their ground doesn't meet the standard.

Interesting to see what is/was Austin McPhee's company might be applying. perhaps he could use his contacts to bring Eric Dejmba-Djemba and Stephane Bahoken back to Scotland - although based on what I saw last season the Lowland League is probably too high a level for them.

[Jacksgranda]

You could play them on the beaches.

Grimbo

Probably more room there than in the streets and the hills...

[Cicero]

Nobody among the more progressive junior support on here is arguing that the position taken by the SJFA has been helpful. But there has been a complete lack of leadership from Hampden and the result is a threat of complete polarisation of the non league game. That really irks me. But I see no immediate solution so we'll all just have to get on with it. The LL won't be the league it could have been and the Juniors will continue to slowly strangle themselves. Lose/Lose really.

I agree with much of what you say, even about the fast tracking of the youth teams which is why I believe we should have a West of Scotland feeder league and perhaps in time, a Fife and Central one.

However I don't agree about your stance on the lack of leadership from the SFA. The SFA would be in a no win situation if they tried to be heavy handed with the juniors. You are in a minority in the junior fraternity wanting your team to be part of the pyramid. Most just want their clubs to be left alone and continue as though the pyramid never existed. If the SFA said to the juniors that you are not having you local big games because of having to separate clubs because of licensing criteria, there would be uproar. It is a decision that has to be left to the individual clubs whether they want to opt on or out.

I willing to concede that the Lowland League was rushed through in the first place (I said at the time another season was needed to get things in place properly) however two seasons down the line the league is in a strong position. The EoS and SoS clubs took the risk (as they had less to lose) and are now reaping the benefits. All teams have coped with the extra travelling (one of the main concerns at the time) and I have to say the standard of play is getting better every season. If we continue to progress and juniors continue to suffer because of lack of investment then the revolution may happen without the need for the SFA to be heavy handed.

Your point about the Lose/Lose scenario just doesn’t hold. We have shown that we can go from strength to strength without the need of the vast hordes of junior away fans. However how long will the top junior clubs put up with the lack of sponsorship, guaranteed access to the Scottish Cup?

[Burnie_man]

Couple of points.

The lack of leadership by the SFA was evident to everyone when the LL was rushed in. That in my opinion suited a number of people/clubs in the EoSFL who knew that the way the league was rushed through would mean that no Junior club would be interested (or able) to apply, so it would be no more than a glorified EoSFL with the same clubs dominating without the threat of Junior involvement. The SFA just let them get on with it. The notice period of the formation of the LL was ridiculous, Junior clubs never had any direct communication from the SFA, there were no presentations, no brochures, no Q&A, nothing to allay any concerns. Instead all they had to go on was what little info was passed on by the SJFA Exec Committee who are anti-Pyramid.

If the SFA actually gave much of a damn, they would have bypassed them and engaged directly with the clubs. They didn’t, no Junior club applied – understandably – and now we’re too far gone for that situation to change. Fault lies as much with the SFA as with the SJFA, if not more so.

Regarding LL clubs “reaping the benefits” and going from “strength to strength” can you expand on that and give some examples? Edinburgh City won the league in front of sometimes pitiful crowds at Meadowbank and Spartans still can’t seem to break into three figures for run of the mill games, which won’t improve if more youth clubs or SoS clubs are admitted. EKFC seem to be one of the league’s success stories but the jury is still out on BSC.

I agree with much of what you say, even about the fast tracking of the youth teams which is why I believe we should have a West of Scotland feeder league and perhaps in time, a Fife and Central one.

However I don't agree about your stance on the lack of leadership from the SFA. The SFA would be in a no win situation if they tried to be heavy handed with the juniors. You are in a minority in the junior fraternity wanting your team to be part of the pyramid. Most just want their clubs to be left alone and continue as though the pyramid never existed. If the SFA said to the juniors that you are not having you local big games because of having to separate clubs because of licensing criteria, there would be uproar. It is a decision that has to be left to the individual clubs whether they want to opt on or out.

I willing to concede that the Lowland League was rushed through in the first place (I said at the time another season was needed to get things in place properly) however two seasons down the line the league is in a strong position. The EoS and SoS clubs took the risk (as they had less to lose) and are now reaping the benefits. All teams have coped with the extra travelling (one of the main concerns at the time) and I have to say the standard of play is getting better every season. If we continue to progress and juniors continue to suffer because of lack of investment then the revolution may happen without the need for the SFA to be heavy handed.

Your point about the Lose/Lose scenario just doesn’t hold. We have shown that we can go from strength to strength without the need of the vast hordes of junior away fans. However how long will the top junior clubs put up with the lack of sponsorship, guaranteed access to the Scottish Cup?

[Rocky85]

From another thread on this subforum:

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/221702-edinburgh-city-future-long-term/#entry9345478

Good that the Wanderers are going for it. Really need another South team in the LL

So looks like the five applicants, if there are five, are probably:

Civil Service Strollers

St Cuthberts Wanderers

Cumbernauld Colts

Edusport Academy

AMsoccer

Don't think Saints have, try Glasgow Uni???

[parsforlife]

"Lack of leadership" seems to just mean not getting the sjfa telt quick enough.

It shouldn't be unreasonable for the sjfa to communicate accurate unbiased information with its members. The fact that didn't happen has to lie with the sjfa senior figures, and the clubs who continually keep them in their positions.

[Bankies Alive]

If you had seen the Pyramid document that the SFA sent out you`d have seen that Junior inclusion was an afterthought.

They had obviously thought that the Juniors would`ve said no en masse but as Burnie says there were 30 clubs interested so they added a sheet of A4 on at the end with the Juniors being on a level with the SoS and EoS leagues.

When you had a club like Girvan leaving the SoS to join the Ayrshire District Juniors citing the SoS league as dreadful.

The "pyramid" is a badly thought out and rushed in dogs breakfast.

[Cicero]

Couple of points.

The lack of leadership by the SFA was evident to everyone when the LL was rushed in. That in my opinion suited a number of people/clubs in the EoSFL who knew that the way the league was rushed through would mean that no Junior club would be interested (or able) to apply, so it would be no more than a glorified EoSFL with the same clubs dominating without the threat of Junior involvement. The SFA just let them get on with it. The notice period of the formation of the LL was ridiculous, Junior clubs never had any direct communication from the SFA, there were no presentations, no brochures, no Q&A, nothing to allay any concerns. Instead all they had to go on was what little info was passed on by the SJFA Exec Committee who are anti-Pyramid.

If the SFA actually gave much of a damn, they would have bypassed them and engaged directly with the clubs. They didn’t, no Junior club applied – understandably – and now we’re too far gone for that situation to change. Fault lies as much with the SFA as with the SJFA, if not more so.

Hardly the fault of the SFA if the association that your club choose to fall under has not passed the information on, your issue is with the SJFA. Presentations? Brochures? Everyone knew what was on offer. What was missing, as far as the juniors were concerned, was assurances from the SJFA that they could go back to their respective Super leagues if the LL turned out to be a disaster. The SFA didn't have the authority to produce a brochure for that point.

The basic fundamental reason that the juniors do not want to part of the pyramid is that they are scared to venture out of their own locality. Once again don't blame the SFA, nobody else's fault but the clubs themselves. Are the juniors are like pensioners on a bus tour holiday needing to be told what they are going to do or see next? Its time the junior clubs grew up and took responsibility for their own destiny instead of waiting to be told what to do next.

It is a couple of years down the line and there are still places available. What time scale do you need to make your mind up? Or are you all waiting to see who is brave enough to take the first step.

Regarding LL clubs “reaping the benefits” and going from “strength to strength” can you expand on that and give some examples? Edinburgh City won the league in front of sometimes pitiful crowds at Meadowbank and Spartans still can’t seem to break into three figures for run of the mill games, which won’t improve if more youth clubs or SoS clubs are admitted. EKFC seem to be one of the league’s success stories but the jury is still out on BSC.

We have

good facilities as the norm,

sponsorship of the league,

entry to the Scottish Cup,

"Christmas Bonus" from the SFA,

fixture lists for virtually the whole season,

increased playing standards

and more media exposure than the juniors.

To name just a few things of the top of my head. Oh and cup draws with the correct number of team in them and players know how many games they are suspended for when they are sent off.

What is it with the juniors and crowds? Apart from the usual quoted examples, it is not as if you lot do much better? The future fans will come from the youth clubs that you are talking about. The days of going along to the local junior match when your big team is playing away from home are gone. We need to get fans at an early age and what better way than to get the younger fans to go and support the team that they actually play for. Since the formation of our youth set up this season, I have seen a lot more younger fans at our matches.

[Burnie_man]

"Lack of leadership" seems to just mean not getting the sjfa telt quick enough.

It shouldn't be unreasonable for the sjfa to communicate accurate unbiased information with its members. The fact that didn't happen has to lie with the sjfa senior figures, and the clubs who continually keep them in their positions.

Absolutely correct, the SJFA should have been a lot more engaged – we all know that - however what little information was provided was probably not much more than the SFA had supplied them with in the first place. I doubt they held anything back and refused to circulate it. As stated earlier, plenty Junior clubs expressed Pyramid interest in several SJFA surveys.

As governing body of our game, and given they were trying to change over 100 years of closed shop mentality, you would have thought the SFA would have been a little more pro-active in engaging with clubs and listening to their concerns. There was nothing. No roadshows, no Q&A sessions, no Hampden seminars, no glossy brochures, no Power Point presentations. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Not for the Juniors anyway.

If you are serious about change, serious about getting the message across, serious about changing minds, serious about making it work, you have to put the effort in.

The SFA didn’t, and largely left their EoSFL members run with it.

[HibeeJibee]

Junior clubs never had any direct communication from the SFA, there were no presentations, no brochures, no Q&A, nothing to allay any concerns. Instead all they had to go on was what little info was passed on by the SJFA Exec Committee

I don't think that's right, there were evening meetings at Hampden - I recall the 'intrigue' on here about which clubs had gone along and been spotted. I do get a lot of what you say though, I too wish SFA was more proactive regarding what happens/ed regarding Juniors.

the Juniors being on a level with the SoS and EoS leagues.

When you had a club like Girvan leaving the SoS to join the Ayrshire District Juniors citing the SoS league as dreadful.

How else could it be done (achievably not just ideally)? At that time, not a single Junior club was licensed, and since only Rose has become so.

Haddington fan put it on P&B, see link:

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/198033-lowland-league-pyramid-system-thread/?p=7256109

Full doc there is 4 pages, including:

• The SJFA have expressed an interest to join the pyramid structure from Season 2014/15 at the earliest. It is proposed that the East and West Super Leagues (or a combined “Super” Super League combining East and West) feed into the LL and the North Super League feeds into the SHFL. The SJFA would only join the structure if promotion was not mandatory and if the rules and constitution of the SJFA were left unchanged. This needs further discussion, it had been proposed: i) that promotion would be mandatory for licensed clubs, ii) rules and constitution would be harmonised across the feeder leagues, incorporating the best of each
• Having three or four feeder leagues into the LL would be cumbersome. It is proposed that consideration is given to creating one merged body across football beneath the LL by 2016

which seems pretty reasonable.

[Burnie_man]

Hardly the fault of the SFA if the association that your club choose to fall under has not passed the information on, your issue is with the SJFA. Presentations? Brochures? Everyone knew what was on offer. What was missing, as far as the juniors were concerned, was assurances from the SJFA that they could go back to their respective Super leagues if the LL turned out to be a disaster. The SFA didn't have the authority to produce a brochure for that point.

The basic fundamental reason that the juniors do not want to part of the pyramid is that they are scared to venture out of their own locality. Once again don't blame the SFA, nobody else's fault but the clubs themselves. Are the juniors are like pensioners on a bus tour holiday needing to be told what they are going to do or see next? Its time the junior clubs grew up and took responsibility for their own destiny instead of waiting to be told what to do next.

It is a couple of years down the line and there are still places available. What time scale do you need to make your mind up? Or are you all waiting to see who is brave enough to take the first step.

We have

good facilities as the norm,

sponsorship of the league,

entry to the Scottish Cup,

"Christmas Bonus" from the SFA,

fixture lists for virtually the whole season,

increased playing standards

and more media exposure than the juniors.

To name just a few things of the top of my head. Oh and cup draws with the correct number of team in them and players know how many games they are suspended for when they are sent off.

What is it with the juniors and crowds? Apart from the usual quoted examples, it is not as if you lot do much better? The future fans will come from the youth clubs that you are talking about. The days of going along to the local junior match when your big team is playing away from home are gone. We need to get fans at an early age and what better way than to get the younger fans to go and support the team that they actually play for. Since the formation of our youth set up this season, I have seen a lot more younger fans at our matches.

Re the SFA I have covered that in my above post, they are culpable of failing to do anywhere near enough to encourage a change in attitudes. That is as plain as the nose on your face.

As for the benefits, the Juniors have all of that apart from the SFA handouts and erm, fixture lists.

As for crowds, as I said, if you are going to move into SPFL football with less fans than an Albion Rovers pie queue, then it's hardly improving the game, and doesn't reflect well on the LL.

[Burnie_man]

I don't think that's right, there were evening meetings at Hampden - I recall the 'intrigue' on here about which clubs had gone along and been spotted. I do get a lot of what you say though, I too wish SFA was more proactive regarding what happens/ed re Juniors.

That was attended solely by SJFA committee bods, I was a club rep at the time and there were never open invites to clubs to attend anything re the Pyramid.

[Bankies Alive]

Telling clubs like Talbot,Linlithgow etc that they were on a par with teams that they`d beat by double figure scores and are watched by 2 men and a dog in a public park was hardly the way to get them onside?

[HibeeJibee]

Doubt that factor figured highly in their thoughts.

But regardless - it had to be (and would still have to be) a compromise of that nature. You couldn't put the EOS & SOS under the Junior districts for same reason.

And both have now joined the pyramid and Juniors haven't. Personally I still think you could add Juniors at tier 6 then look to assimilate into 2 feeders, tbf.

[Rocky85]

Telling clubs like Talbot,Linlithgow etc that they were on a par with teams that they`d beat by double figure scores and are watched by 2 men and a dog in a public park was hardly the way to get them onside?

Remind us all of Edin City v Talbot score this season................

[Bankies Alive]

Edinburgh City aren't in any of the leagues I mentioned.

Linlithgow are seen as the same level as Spartans reserves ffs!

[Burnie_man]

And both have now joined the pyramid and Juniors haven't. Personally I still think you could add Juniors at tier 6 then look to assimilate into 2 feeders, tbf.

I doubt very much that is a solution.

If the SJFA are ever persuaded to become part of a Pyramid, it would be at LL and HL level, not EoS and SoS.