AUFC90 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Depends where you mean. We've been meddling in the former Ottoman territories since the 19th century. Obviously the west isn't completely at fault, even the collapsing Ottoman Empire which was famed for its religious tolerance in the 16th century was actively persecuting the Christian and Jewish minorities by the 19th century but the west, as in the major powers of the world at the time, handled the collapse and eventual partition of its lands really badly and haven't really improved in the decolonisation period or after. I totally agree. Carving up the land and expecting different tribes to live together was never going to work but I'd say the problems we have today are more to do with our conduct after WW2 than before it. We just can't bloody help ourselves. Now we are in the position where it's unlikely to ever go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 You reckon they'd have trained them in order to overthrow Assad during the Arab spring?That's exactly why they did train them. Like I said, we like extremists and dictators when it suits us. There's really no moral high ground to be had at all if you're talking about UK/US foreign affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 If you're looking for reasons for Islamic extremists then decades of Western foreign policy have to be considered - as AUFC90 pointed out we have absolutely no moral high ground here. In terms of who is to blame though - it can only be the psychopaths themselves. No sense can be made of these actions (the list of atrocities is now pretty bloody long) and they have to be condemned in the fullest possible terms. Psychotic murderous b*****ds. Jon Stewart compared them to the Nazis. The West Wing compared them to the KKK. That's the level we're dealing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Depends where you mean. We've been meddling in the former Ottoman territories since the 19th century. Obviously the west isn't completely at fault, even the collapsing Ottoman Empire which was famed for its religious tolerance in the 16th century was actively persecuting the Christian and Jewish minorities by the 19th century but the west, as in the major powers of the world at the time, handled the collapse and eventual partition of its lands really badly and haven't really improved in the decolonisation period or after. http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswarsto1000/p/tours.htm I'm blaming the west, neoliberals, Thatcher and the UKs foreign policy as well as its love of foreign wars for provoking these lovely people. And TESCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswarsto1000/p/tours.htm I'm blaming the west, neoliberals, Thatcher and the UKs foreign policy as well as its love of foreign wars for provoking these lovely people. And TESCO I'll give you this Reynard. All too often the liberal left have failed to condemn these lunatics and that is a dereliction of duty. In their defence they tend to be reacting to the right's extreme islamophobia . But still... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 If you're looking for reasons for Islamic extremists then decades of Western foreign policy have to be considered - as AUFC90 pointed out we have absolutely no moral high ground here. In terms of who is to blame though - it can only be the psychopaths themselves. No sense can be made of these actions (the list of atrocities is now pretty bloody long) and they have to be condemned in the fullest possible terms. Psychotic murderous b*****ds. Jon Stewart compared them to the Nazis. The West Wing compared them to the KKK. That's the level we're dealing with. I totally agree that these people should be condemned. No doubt. c***s the lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I'll give you this Reynard. All too often the liberal left have failed to condemn these lunatics and that is a dereliction of duty. In their defence they tend to be reacting to the right's extreme islamophobia . But still... I fucking hate Islam and all it stands for. Its totally incompatible with basically everything we take for granted and its on the march. What are we going to do about it? Its here, its going berserk all across Europe and its only going to get worse. Much,much worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I'd say there's only 2 options. We blow the shit out of them all or we stay the hell away and concentrate on strengthening our own internal security by spending money on our intelligence and stuff rather than nukes and aircraft carriers. I know which one I prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 That's exactly why they did train them. Like I said, we like extremists and dictators when it suits us. There's really no moral high ground to be had at all if you're talking about UK/US foreign affairs. It's understandable why the US/UK government wanted to arm opponents to horrific dictators such as Assad. Having said that I don't see why the chosen group to be armed would be a radical Islamic group. Surely there are people in Syria that actually want democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It's understandable why the US/UK government wanted to arm opponents to horrific dictators such as Assad. Having said that I don't see why the chosen group to be armed would be a radical Islamic group. Surely there are people in Syria that actually want democracy. That was their chosen group. You'll have to ask them. You really need to start realising that the UK doesn't mind supporting bad people as long as it suits their end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It's understandable why the US/UK government wanted to arm opponents to horrific dictators such as Assad. Having said that I don't see why the chosen group to be armed would be a radical Islamic group. Surely there are people in Syria that actually want democracy. Yeah same with Afghanistan. That one came back to bite. Arming Sadam against the Iranians didn't work out well either. This isn't a one off foreign policy mistake. War is big business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I fucking hate Islam and all it stands for. Its totally incompatible with basically everything we take for granted and its on the march. What are we going to do about it? Its here, its going berserk all across Europe and its only going to get worse. Much,much worse. Maybe you could give us the basics, you know for those of us that have only a small understanding of the religion. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 If you're even vaguely looking in the direction of "WESTERN IMPERIALISM" when trying to find reasons behind the Charlie Hebdo attack then just stop and start again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bull Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 This story may only be of interest to those who believe in God. It was an old lady on one of those Sunday morning discussion shows who related it, I found it very striking as it came from a profound understanding of her own faith, and have wondered why it has never been repeated on TV. Well I think the reason it has not is because of limp wristed multiculturalism. Anyway she said that Islam could not be regarded as having any basis in truth, as The angel Gabriel, sent by God, and who revealed Christ divinity to Mary could not have appeared to Mohammad as God does not change his mind. And anyway why would a further prophet be required after the son of God had shown people how to live their lives and redeemed mankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Maybe you could give us the basics, you know for those of us that have only a small understanding of the religion. Cheers I COULD. Or I could just leave you to suck each other cocks as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 This story may only be of interest to those who believe in God. It was an old lady on one of those Sunday morning discussion shows who related it, I found it very striking as it came from a profound understanding of her own faith, and have wondered why it has never been repeated on TV. Well I think the reason it has not is because of limp wristed multiculturalism. Anyway she said that Islam could not be regarded as having any basis in truth, as The angel Gabriel, sent by God, and who revealed Christ divinity to Mary could not have appeared to Mohammad as God does not change his mind. And anyway why would a further prophet be required after the son of God had shown people how to live their lives and redeemed mankind. Nice story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I COULD. Or I could just leave you to suck each other cocks as usual. I don't actually think you could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 So if we hadn't invaded Iraq then these French cartoonists would still be alive? Salman Rushdie is on the same death list as the cartoonists and the Danish chaps that did the Mohammed one with the bomb turban thingy. They dared to say something that muslims disagreed with so they must be killed for it. We can cross Charbonnier off this list. His crime wasn't anything to do with Israel, the west, the USA big business, big tobacco, neoliberals, Jews, or anything like that. His crime was to mock a religion. And its a religion well worth mocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I don't actually think you could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YassinMoutaouakil Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Salman Rushdie is on the same death list as the cartoonists and the Danish chaps that did the Mohammed one with the bomb turban thingy. They dared to say something that muslims disagreed with so they must be killed for it. We can cross Charbonnier off this list. His crime wasn't anything to do with Israel, the west, the USA big business, big tobacco, neoliberals, Jews, or anything like that. His crime was to mock a religion. And its a religion well worth mocking. I rarely find myself agreeing with you but I do here. I'm against military intervention in the Module East and pro-multicultarism but we can't victim blame and not be afraid to tackle religious extremism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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