HibeeJibee Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I don't understand how turning down entry is "holding others back". Say team A wins the league, but doesn't want promotion. Team B comes second. They aren't being "held back" - they aren't good enough! ... this season. In any normal circumstance, 'Team A' would then have moved-up to a higher level, and 'Team B' would then get their chance. You could also have a scenario where a team was investing in wages, and not in facilities/organisation, and finishing above those who were. (Thankfully that isn't really an issue between SPFL2 and HL/LL as the criteria are fairly similar, especially in HL where everyone already has floodlights. It could, perhaps, become so in EOS/SOS leagues several years down-the-line). Ambitious clubs will be unable to move-up, and relegated clubs return, if it's possible for a club to dominate the same league year-after-year. That can only be avoided by: [a] compulsion (essentially 'move-up or get out'); or passing the slot down, albeit this has certain pitfalls. At least until a culture exists where not wanting to ascend would be considered 'odd', and therefore be rare. Ross County, having worked their way up from HL wooden-spoonists to Premiership 'Top 6', are a great advert for the possibilities of a pyramid system, I'd think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzdrk Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I don't understand how turning down entry is "holding others back". Say team A wins the league, but doesn't want promotion. Team B comes second. They aren't being "held back" - they aren't good enough! aren't good enough for what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Ross County, having worked their way up from HL wooden-spoonists to Premiership 'Top 6', are a great advert for the possibilities of a pyramid system, I'd think. Dingwall has a population of 6500 odd, and the support of many disgruntled fans of Inverness teams when the enforced merger happened. And a very generous sugar daddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Tbf, I wasn't suggesting that everyone can or should 'do a Ross County'... Rather, I was pointing-out the opportunities and possibilities which can exist. And not just in the literal sense of a club like RC going from what's now tier 5 to tier 1. If Gretna 2008 ever make SPFL they'll have gone from what's now tier 7 to tier 4 or beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Dingwall has a population of 6500 odd, and the support of many disgruntled fans of Inverness teams when the enforced merger happened. And a very generous sugar daddy. All true, but then that doesn't mean another team won't find themselves in that position, and it important if they do they can rise through the leagues appropriately . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
football maniac Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I don't understand how turning down entry is "holding others back". Say team A wins the league, but doesn't want promotion. Team B comes second. They aren't being "held back" - they aren't good enough! The sad thing is Team B probably are good enough as I reckon the top end of the highland league is a higher standard than most league 2 teams. They should change the rules so the highest placed team who wants to progress is given the opportunity to do so. There is certainly room for another Aberdeen team as its far to big a city to have only 1 team in the spfl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Shaker Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 The sad thing is Team B probably are good enough as I reckon the top end of the highland league is a higher standard than most league 2 teams. They should change the rules so the highest placed team who wants to progress is given the opportunity to do so. There is certainly room for another Aberdeen team as its far to big a city to have only 1 team in the spfl. So far this season, Turriff United have had their arse kicked by Clyde, Formartine lost at Berwick, Cove lost to Annan, Forres lost to Elgin (after a replay) and Arbroath beat Nairn. League Two 5-0 Highland League Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
football maniac Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 So far this season, Turriff United have had their arse kicked by Clyde, Formartine lost at Berwick, Cove lost to Annan, Forres lost to Elgin (after a replay) and Arbroath beat Nairn. League Two 5-0 Highland League Thats me telt I was kind of basing my assumption on Brora Rangers excellent performance at Palmerston this season. Better than any league 1 teams when we were in that league. I see it is quite close at the top and I look at some of the players in those teams and on paper they look of a very good standard. I still reckon there is room for another team from the Aberdeen area as a city of 220000 people in a small country should have more than 1 league team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Shaker Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 To be honest, any of those results could have gone either way on any given weekend depending on who was at home. Turriff were caught cold that day, Forres have run Elgin close in all of their three meetings this season, Arbroath squeaked past Nairn by a single goal and Formartine dumped Elgin (and someone else) out of the Ramsdens Cup last season. Brora were leaps and bounds above everyone else last season but have been reeled in a bit, possibly because their small squad is puggled. The problem is that most of the players who play for these sides now wouldn't play for them if they were league clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waspie Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Thats me telt I was kind of basing my assumption on Brora Rangers excellent performance at Palmerston this season. Better than any league 1 teams when we were in that league. I see it is quite close at the top and I look at some of the players in those teams and on paper they look of a very good standard. I still reckon there is room for another team from the Aberdeen area as a city of 220000 people in a small country should have more than 1 league team. They are a good side but the Alloa team who were in the Second Division with you that season were considerably better than them. I would say there are a few other sides who were in that league who would have beaten them too. Cup games aren't a fair barometer anyway to be honest, there was a spell in the late 90's/early 00's when Alloa beat or ran close several SPL sides. Nobody suggested that Alloa team was good enough to be in the SPL. I watch a fair bit of Highland League football and the vast majority of the teams, with their current squads, would struggle in the SPFL. Plenty of them do have good setups though and if they did step up and added to their squads they would be capable of competing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharkSharkShark Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Brora comfortably beat Stenny, narrowly lost to East Fife, and were unlucky but ultimately too weak for Queens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComeBackAlexStuart Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 I don't agree that Clubs should be forced into a position of having to play-off if they happen to be champions of their league. A Club which has played for many years in the HL or LL and survived financially during their existence, has the right to assess whether a step up to League 2 is in the best interests of the Club. If they felt that the financial implications of the step up might threaten the Club's existence, then surely they must have the right to turn down a play-off place. The fans should have a say of course, and any individuals who see stepping up as the way forward can go on the board and work to make that a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 In that scenario - declining promotion is permitted - do you feel the slot should be passed-down to the next team, or invalid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I don't agree that Clubs should be forced into a position of having to play-off if they happen to be champions of their league. A Club which has played for many years in the HL or LL and survived financially during their existence, has the right to assess whether a step up to League 2 is in the best interests of the Club. If they felt that the financial implications of the step up might threaten the Club's existence, then surely they must have the right to turn down a play-off place. The fans should have a say of course, and any individuals who see stepping up as the way forward can go on the board and work to make that a possibility. I find it difficult to see the argument that clubs will be worse off if they are promoted, even if they need to install floodlights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I don't agree that Clubs should be forced into a position of having to play-off if they happen to be champions of their league. A Club which has played for many years in the HL or LL and survived financially during their existence, has the right to assess whether a step up to League 2 is in the best interests of the Club. If they felt that the financial implications of the step up might threaten the Club's existence, then surely they must have the right to turn down a play-off place. The fans should have a say of course, and any individuals who see stepping up as the way forward can go on the board and work to make that a possibility. OK, let's take your points one at a time: 1. "I don't agree that Clubs should be forced into a position of having to play-off if they happen to be champions of their league." The whole purpose of a league structure is in order that clubs find their natural level of competition, thereby maintaining the maximum interest for spectators and clubs alike. Clubs especially in the lower reaches can easily find themselves at the mercy of one club being financially doped by a moderately successful businessman deciding to have his little ego trip, hoovering up all the prizes & disincentivising fans to bother going to watch anything other than the winning side (or players going to play). 2. "A Club which has played for many years in the HL or LL and survived financially during their existence, has the right to assess whether a step up to League 2 is in the best interests of the Club." And a league has the right to decide whether it's time for their big fish to go and see if they can cut it in the big pond, instead of swallowing up all the goodies in the little pond so the other clubs slowly starve. Clubs do not have a "right" to a particular league just because they want to be in it. 3. "If they felt that the financial implications of the step up might threaten the Club's existence, then surely they must have the right to turn down a play-off place." Having somewhere to be promoted to (with terms and conditions applying) obliges clubs to be properly run where rules with the best will in the world often will not, with the correct infrastructure and facilities off the field complimenting their strength on the field, so that even should their big financial backer pull out, the club will not immediately plunge into crisis. More to the point, it obliges them to make sure they will have the infrastructure in place to cope with the higher level where they are no longer guaranteed to have matters all their own way. The Junior set up is a glaring example of what happens without it: peppered with white dwarves such as Bathgate, Kilwinning Rangers, Johnstone Burgh & others which "bought" success for a time before falling apart (& falling down the leagues) when their Uncle Pennybags hits a real life Advance To Mayfair, leaving others to pick up the pieces with nothing but memories of "the golden years". Thankfully those days seem to be dying (partly because the injection of Scottish Cup money is putting certain clubs beyond the reach of any wannabe financial doper wanting to play Football Manager Reality Version with a Junior side), but they serve as a warning as to what happens when you have local leagues in a closed shop with nowhere to naturally advance upwards. It also prevents the fiasco of having non-league sides markedly stronger than their national league equivalents, something which was the bane of English football before the pyramid where Division 4 sides had more to worry about than Blyth Spartans in the FA Cup, but the likes of Altrincham, Telford United, Yeovil, in fact most of the top sides of the pre-Conference Northern & Southern Premier Leagues were more than a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I find it difficult to see the argument that clubs will be worse off if they are promoted, even if they need to install floodlights. That's also a fair point. In practice, the prize-money for simply turning-up at the start-line in SPFL2 must dwarf the additional outlay, for example on travelling. A couple of seasons ago the prizemoney for winning HL and HL Cup was £2,000 + £17 per point ( ) and £1,100 respectively. When SPL & SFL merged an official listing predicted the prizemoney of finishing bottom in SPFL2 at £32,000 and it used to be £10,500 for going out in League Cup R1. Both those will be lower at the moment, due to the absence or partial absence of title sponsors, but the broad point stands. EDIT: plus relegation 'parachutes' = £40k (Y1) & £20k (Y2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Re the costs of floodlights if found this article from England http://www.thefa.com/~/media/files/pdf/get%20into%20football/facilities/floodlighting%20guidance%20%285%29.ashx Cost It is important to consider all costs related to a floodlighting project including capital spend, revenue and lifecycle costs. Capital expenditure not only includes the floodlighting contract and installation but also professional fees, planning fees and any connection or supply charges. Typically a new FA entry level match competition standard floodlighting installation of six masts (2 floodlights on each mast) 180 lux will cost in the region of £35,000. For 250 lux on an eight mast system (3 floodlights on each mast) will cost in the region of £50,000. Training lights at 75 - 100 lux on 4 masts (2 floodlights on each mast) will cost in the region of £30,000. These discussions should take place with your approved lighting consultant as indicated above at stage 3. Ok it's a few years old and theirs running costs to consider but i think those figures will still be in the right region, in comparison entry level recommends 200 lux, bronze level(the required league 1 an 2 standard) is 300 lux And silver (championship and premiership standard is 500 lux. So at a guess starting from scratch you'll be talking 60k for entry to spfl, but when being relegated after season with no cup progression will bring in approximately 100k then you can't really complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Dingwall has a population of 6500 odd, and the support of many disgruntled fans of Inverness teams when the enforced merger happened. And a very generous sugar daddy. The clue with Ross County is in the name; it's not actually a club reliant upon dragging the villagers out to watch the game, in the same way that Queen of the South aren't a 'Dumfries' club in the way many clubs are focused on one town catchment areas in the Central Belt. Judging league quality by cup performances is very sketchy: Auchinleck and Irvine Meadow ran both Hibs and Hearts close in one-off, away cup final style ties, but ultimately Auchinleck are yet to eliminate a single senior side (include a few middling ones) from the competition, and the Juniors have largely been put back in their box for the experience. Results aren't a certain indicator but they're a lot closer to the mark than plucky displays, as it is solid results that any side will need as soon as they make the step up into the SPFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidernation Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Brora could just lose the playoff if they don't want to leave the HL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 They could. But a team going out to deliberately lose a game is match-fixing. A potentially dangerous thing to do, surely. EDIT: Even their 'main backer' quoted earlier in the thread, despite his preference (then anyway) to stay put, said "we would never throw a game". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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