Hampden Diehard Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 One of the reasons that we're not in a regional academy (apart from there not being one in Glasgow!!) is that our best players would get sooked up into the academy and very probably end up being played by the full-time professional team who were also part of that academy. If I am correct in what I'm saying (and that's not often), if (say) a young Messi were to pop up at the Shire and get moved to the Forth Valley Academy, he wouldn't go back to the Shire, but move onto Falkirk as the "outcome" of his participation in the academy system. Where does that leave the Shire. Would they get the training payment that they would have received if wee Lionel has spent 5 years with them, ratyher than just 2 followed by 3 with the Academy? It's very expensive to be part of the academy system (albeit clubs are part-funded by the SFA), but the cost in terms of poorer opportunities for our lads to compete against the best is the other side of the argument. I was on a tour of the Ajax ground in Amsterdam a few years ago and they had an arrangement whereby kids who wanted to play with them were "streamed". The good ones would follow one path, and the ones who weren't going to make it could still train and play at the club because Ajax saw that as an important part of their ethos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FortyMile Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 I don't think you'd need such a thing where you live for the reasons you've already stated. My understanding about the regional academies is that the kids belong to one of the constituent clubs even though they are at the "Regional" academy. Once the academy has run it's course then the kids will return to the professional club they are signed to. In some respects, helping your local rivals seems like a form of madness but needs must. It's just a sign of the times for certain clubs in Scottish football. It always seems like they are doing things better than anyone else in Holland. For a nation with a small population they punch well above their weight. Given the paucity of resources that our clubs it's difficult to see something like that happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visitor 88 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I think we may be turning a corner now with clubs forced to promote from youth but if you take the pro youth system as a whole then for all the years it's been in place, how many top players has it produced? The answer is not many so it has been a failure thus far but we have a chance to really make it work now and hopefully it does Almost every scottish player under the age of 30 came through the pro youth set up so you can't say it's not been successful. You're a celtic man, all you need to do is look at celtic. Mulgrew,Forrest, mcgregor even brown with hibs pro youth. There's McGeady an Naismith both at Everton and full internationals so pro youth hadn't been too bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-r-cfc Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Almost every scottish player under the age of 30 came through the pro youth set up so you can't say it's not been successful. You're a celtic man, all you need to do is look at celtic. Mulgrew,Forrest, mcgregor even brown with hibs pro youth. There's McGeady an Naismith both at Everton and full internationals so pro youth hadn't been too bad Aye they come through pro youth because it's the only way to come up really. national team success is successful where it is generally measured and in that regard it hasn't been a success in my opinion. I'm not saying that it doesn't have the potential for success because from first-hand experience some of the talent we have is scary as well as plenty of committed coaches. It's starting to produce the goods now by the looks of things. Boys like Robertson, gauld etc are better than anything we've had in those positions for years. Pro youth and the academy system has, in my opinion, been very slow to kick off properly but I think that, run the right way, it will succeed. Still too much of a focus on big players and not enough risk taking which is isolating our most naturally gifted players. Again from first hand experience I've seen some insanely talented youngsters who I know won't make it because they're not big enough at the moment. The amount of pro youth games I've seen where boys are actively discouraged from going on a run or seeking a forward pass is depressing The talent is there but it's up to the infrastructure and the coaches to catch up with a changing game or we're at risk of being left further behind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hampden Diehard Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Talking to an Arbroath director on Saturday and he mentioned that the dramatic drop in funding from the SFA over the past couple of years has resulted in his club ditching its very successful youth set up. The focus of funding is now most firmly aimed at the bigger clubs. It remains to be seen if this does actually result in any tangible increase in the quality of Scottish player. A wee keek at the African Nations Cup on the TV just now shows how far behind we are in terms of basic ball skills. Most of our top division players couldn't trap a bag of cement or pass a ball ten yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FortyMile Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 You've got a point there Hampden. There's no question about us lagging behind. If you look at other smaller nations (in terms of population), such as Holland and Croatia, Serbia etc (even Belgium now), they are punching well above their weight when it comes to the sheer numbers of decent players that emerge. It's all based on technical ability, and effective decision making. Much of it is what goes on in a player's head before they even receive the ball. The disappearance of Academy teams from pro clubs is not necessarily a bad thing because there are boys clubs who historically have produced a lot of good players. If we can safely assume that the best pro coaches are at the best/biggest pro clubs, then surely some of the kids who are discarded at 16 or whatever could find themselves a club further down the league system. That's pretty much how it's always worked. We still have a good and very active boys club system which helps young 'uns develop. This is the case across a lot of Scotland. I was looking at the list of pros that Hutchieson Vale have produced over the last couple of decades and it's very impressive. From clubs like that young kids could easily find themselves playing for Arbroath and others coming out of the stronger academies not considered quite good enough at the bigger clubs. At the start of this article, I posted the stats for the number of Scots playing in the pro leagues here and it's very high compared to England. These lads have had to come from somewhere! The question is not about the numbers of course but the quality of those players. There will always be a lot of Scots boys playing in Scotland, but it'w whether we will ever see the likes of Hansen, Dalglish, Law, Gilzean etc going on to do well elsewhere that's the real litmus test. There are a few, whose names have already cropped up but it';s a trickle at best compared to a couple of generations ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTID Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Don't really see the acon as being a good example of technique and touch. The quality is usually really poor hence why just about anyone can win it. I think we are getting lots right, might be biased - but we are promoting to play the right way unfortunately that won't change overnight. The sfa is running loads of great initiatives, I work with 20 S1s and 20 S2/3s everyday. Hundreds of touches, game intelligence, team shape & off field development ie nutrition, fitness, tactical analysis etc. Need to have a solid grassroots with a best vs best policy at the top imo. Talking to an Arbroath director on Saturday and he mentioned that the dramatic drop in funding from the SFA over the past couple of years has resulted in his club ditching its very successful youth set up. The focus of funding is now most firmly aimed at the bigger clubs. It remains to be seen if this does actually result in any tangible increase in the quality of Scottish player. A wee keek at the African Nations Cup on the TV just now shows how far behind we are in terms of basic ball skills. Most of our top division players couldn't trap a bag of cement or pass a ball ten yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayr Utd Youth Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Need to have a solid grassroots with a best vs best policy at the top imo. Competition now introduced at u17s , would like to see this filter down to u15s as well with a National Cup Competition at each age group and Promotion and Relegation introduced between the two Levels ( Iniative & Elite or whatever they are called now ) only then when its based on results on the pitch will you be sure that the best sides are really playing the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
only fools and horses Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Good thread and I agree with all the points being made. I would support the model of fewer teams of a better quality in the pro youth set up, whether by more regional academies or by some of the smaller clubs dropping their academies like Arbroath. I suspect that there are alot of parents bracing themselves for the prospect of a resumption of criss crossing the Scottish mainland with little chance of their offspring ending up in footballing employment. The boys club level, playing for the most part locally, is surely a better option for most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG TED Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Almost every scottish player under the age of 30 came through the pro youth set up so you can't say it's not been successful. You're a celtic man, all you need to do is look at celtic. Mulgrew,Forrest, mcgregor even brown with hibs pro youth. There's McGeady an Naismith both at Everton and full internationals so pro youth hadn't been too bad Absolute rubbish it's only been running 11year , do your homework and no it's not worked or working Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visitor 88 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Absolute rubbish it's only been running 11year , do your homework and no it's not worked or working Poor response. You need to do your homework. I'm 26 and was playing pro youth 13 years ago with an older brother who was playing pro youth 16 years ago. Is the scotland team improving? Yes. Don't see how you can say it's not. I watched the 66 World Cup final on one of those sky gold shows recently and the standard was awful. We haven't necessarily become a bad footballing nation, other nations have improved vastly. Football has developed out of sight in the last 30 years with better training, nutrition and tactics. It's almost incomparable to judge football now and say 50 years ago when celtic won the European cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Need to have a solid grassroots with a best vs best policy at the top imo.Competition now introduced at u17s , would like to see this filter down to u15s as well with a National Cup Competition at each age group and Promotion and Relegation introduced between the two Levels ( Iniative & Elite or whatever they are called now ) only then when its based on results on the pitch will you be sure that the best sides are really playing the best. Not sure i agree, you are closer to pro-youth than me but i think the principle of a non-competitive football is right, particularly at the younger age groups. I remember at 12-13 we were always desperate to know how we were doing in the league, only there wasn't one We were naturally competitive at that age and i think it's right that is curtailed a little bit, we don't want a culture of teams signing a bunch of brutes who can bully oppositions because they happened to hit puberty 6 months earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayr Utd Youth Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Not sure i agree, you are closer to pro-youth than me but i think the principle of a non-competitive football is right, particularly at the younger age groups. I remember at 12-13 we were always desperate to know how we were doing in the league, only there wasn't one We were naturally competitive at that age and i think it's right that is curtailed a little bit, we don't want a culture of teams signing a bunch of brutes who can bully oppositions because they happened to hit puberty 6 months earlier. Parsforlife - Agree at younger age groups 100% but by the time the boys are 15 they should be playing for something. The problem is that the " results " might not match the " Star " tick box funding distribution and might shed a different light on the standings of Academies. At the end of the day , at the business end of the Academy system , Results do matter . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinnig Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gordon-parks-sfa-selling-kids-5903700 Not the most balanced article I've read but certainly reflects the views of many Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clanger165 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I have just read it and have to say its alarmist and without real facts “He said: “The issue for us wasn’t economics, it was the belief we were being dishonest to kids and their parents. They were buying into something we couldn’t do – develop them into first-team players.” Im a parent of a pro Youth player and I can pretty much talk for every parent, nobody is taking anything for granted and havnt been led on by the coaches, if they make it great but if they don’t weve enjoyed the journey. “It’s privately believed there isn’t a single prospect emerging at the Ibrox training base, so if Rangers can’t develop young talent who can blame Clyde.” Says who? This is highly speculative. “Our game needs to get back to the S Form days, boys club football, not being denied the chance to play for your school, inclusion for all and not being told at 11-years-old that you aren’t good enough.” We have had boys club players in as trialist and to be honest without the Pro youth training our boys have had technically the boys clubs players are miles behind. “Club Academy Scotland’s a boys club all right, and a closed-shop one at that.” Wouldnt say that but i would say that they prob have all the best players and its very difficult for a player outside this setup to be able to improve the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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