Question Time

[Tibbermoresaint]

4 minutes ago, AyrExile said:

Yeah it would appear that lots of people who dont live here seem happy for us to go it alone. Would take their opinion a lot more seriously if they were actually willing to move here and live with the gamble 

Being independent isn't a gamble, as the evidence from 200 other countries demonstrates. The gamble is being part of a union which we can't control. As Brexit demonstrates.

[Tibbermoresaint]

9 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

It's a gamble inasmuch as it will have serious effects on people day to day lives for a period of 10 or more years.

 

Independence will have a permanent and serious effect on people's lives. That doesn't make it a gamble.

[Crùbag]

22 minutes ago, AyrExile said:

Yeah it would appear that lots of people who dont live here seem happy for us to go it alone. Would take their opinion a lot more seriously if they were actually willing to move here and live with the gamble 

Is this a serious argument? If so, then the whole idea of trading relations with the outside world is 'not a good thing'?! Do we only trade with ourselves?

Am I really to believe that you don't understand the point here?

[welshbairn]

13 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

Independence will have a permanent and serious effect on people's lives. That doesn't make it a gamble.

It's a gamble on whether it will improve or harm lives. The only people I know about who think that doesn't matter are scarily right wing and usually members of the ERG.

Edited February 9, 2019 by welshbairn

[NotThePars]

Independence will have a permanent and serious effect on people's lives. That doesn't make it a gamble.

Hollering this when I throw my entire savings at Cheltenham next month.

[Tibbermoresaint]

5 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

It's a gamble on whether it will improve or harm lives. The only people I know about who think that doesn't matter are scarily right wing and usually members of the ERG.

Name me a democratic European country which has become worse off as a result of independence.

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

Name me a democratic European country which has become worse off as a result of independence.

Serbia. Ukraine probably.  Eire was worse off till they abandoned the pound and the EU came to the rescue, over 50 years.

Edited February 9, 2019 by welshbairn

[Tibbermoresaint]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Serbia.

Serbian GDP per capita is 3 times its 1995 level. Ukraine's is twice its 1995 level. Have another go.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Tibbermoresaint
Ukraine info added

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

Serbian GDP per capita is 3 times its 1995 level. Have another go.

That's inflation for you. Apart from the break up of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union there aren't many examples though. I added Ireland to my last post. 

[Tibbermoresaint]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

That's inflation for you. Apart from the break up of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union there aren't many examples though. I added Ireland to my last post. 

Inflation from 1995 to 2018 is about 65% in dollar terms, which is what the World Bank's GDP per capita figures are given in.

Are we agreed that you can't provide an example of a democratic European country which has become worse off as a result of independence?

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

Inflation from 1995 to 2018 is about 65% in dollar terms, which is what the World Bank's GDP per capita figures are given in.

Are we agreed that you can't provide an example of a democratic European country which has become worse off as a result of independence?

Ireland was poorer than Portugal until the 1980's, took them 50 years. There aren't many to choose from, most split off from Communist dictatorships and got eager capitalist assistance. Slovakia had an amicable split with the nearly equal Czech republic, can't really think of any others at the moment. If that's your argument why we don't need a convincing economic case to convince people to vote for independence I think you're falling a bit short. Pensions in Russia are far better than pensions in Ukraine btw, a better way to calculate the benefits of independence. 

[Tibbermoresaint]

25 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Ireland was poorer than Portugal until the 1980's, took them 50 years. There aren't many to choose from, most split off from Communist dictatorships and got eager capitalist assistance. Slovakia had an amicable split with the nearly equal Czech republic, can't really think of any others at the moment. If that's your argument why we don't need a convincing economic case to convince people to vote for independence I think you're falling a bit short. Pensions in Russia are far better than pensions in Ukraine btw, a better way to calculate the benefits of independence. 

Clearly we need a convincing economic case to persuade people to vote for independence. Specifically we need a case to overcome the Project Fear nonsense that will be thrown our way and which you appear to have fallen for. And that case must be built upon the facts that independence poses no risk and that our independent peers perform much better than us because they control their own countries.

If you genuinely believe pensions are a better way to calculate the benefits of independence you'll no doubt be aware that pensions in our peer countries are much higher than in ours.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Tibbermoresaint
Spelling

[Ira Gaines]

It's incredible that there's still a "unionist agenda" at this point. All of the uncertainty means nothing when there's the certainty of the total fist fucking that Brexit is going to bring. And yet, you'll still have the unionist's clawing for anything they can, because they don't give a f**k about what's good for Scotland, or what's good for them, or even their loved ones. They care about a union. About a flag. And they'll be responsible for their own misery as a result.

Will they blame those responsible though? Of course not. They'll continue to be as entrenched as they are because it's all they know. The union. The flag. It's all that matters to them.

It has nothing to do with lack of belief in Scotland doing well, and everything to do with not wanting to see an independent Scotland succeed. Because it'll make the UK look bad. And they know that, if it came to it and an Indyref2 actually brought about a yes vote, there's a good chance things could actually be improved upon. Scotland could show that they can go on their own. And we can't be having that.

[Miguel Sanchez]

1 hour ago, NotThePars said:

 

Hollering this when I throw my entire savings at Cheltenham next month.

 

Just make sure your horse doesn't sneeze at any point before it runs

[MONKMAN]

Hollering this when I throw my entire savings at Cheltenham next month.

That’s if Cheltenham is on next month.

[The_Kincardine]

8 minutes ago, Principal Flutie said:

It's incredible that there's still a "unionist agenda" at this point. All of the uncertainty means nothing when there's the certainty of the total fist fucking that Brexit is going to bring. And yet, you'll still have the unionist's clawing for anything they can, because they don't give a f**k about what's good for Scotland, or what's good for them, or even their loved ones. They care about a union. About a flag. And they'll be responsible for their own misery as a result.

You're making the schoolboy error of equating Unionists with Brexiters.

We all know what's good for Scotland - remaining in the union.  The plebiscite agreed this.

We all know what's good for The UK - remaining at the heart of the EU.  Sadly, white van man is a xenophobic shit.

I remain convinced that w'll either get the softest of Brexists or a 2nd vote.  Win either way.

[welshbairn]

35 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

If you genuinely believe pensions are a better way to calculate the benefits of independence you'll no doubt be aware that pensions in our peer countries are much higher than in ours.

Google tells me Russian GDP per capita and average wages are about 3 times higher than that of Ukraine. There are very few examples of modern democratic countries seceding from larger democratic nations, so as a rhetorical question is doesn't work very well. Of course there are lots of small countries similar to us that do well, there is no way of telling whether they might have done just as well or better in a collective of neighbouring countries. To make the case for independence you shouldn't promise we'll be better off, there's no sure way of telling, you just have to make the case strong enough that it's impossible for the unionists to prove that you'll be worse off.

[git-intae-thum]

21 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

You're making the schoolboy error of equating Unionists with Brexiters.

We all know what's good for Scotland - remaining in the union.  The plebiscite agreed this.

We all know what's good for The UK - remaining at the heart of the EU.  Sadly, white van man is a xenophobic shit.

I remain convinced that w'll either get the softest of Brexists or a 2nd vote.  Win either way.

I have a feelin you are going to be let down on that final statement....and not gently.

Your third paragraph was factual though. Unfortunately the politics of white van man has the grip of the Southern half of this island for the forseeable. Its an obscene kind of xenophobia present in all sectors of society that holds serious dangers for the future.

 

Edited February 9, 2019 by git-intae-thum

[sparky88]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

To make the case for independence you shouldn't promise we'll be better off, there's no sure way of telling, you just have to make the case strong enough that it's impossible for the unionists to prove that you'll be worse off.

This.

The Leave campaign fell into the trap of making economic claims that didn't stand up to scrutiny. And it might still cost them Brexit. It should be a warning to the Yes campaign.

[Tibbermoresaint]

6 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Google tells me Russian GDP per capita and average wages are about 3 times higher than that of Ukraine. There are very few examples of modern democratic countries seceding from larger democratic nations, so as a rhetorical question is doesn't work very well. Of course there are lots of small countries similar to us that do well, there is no way of telling whether they might have done just as well or better in a collective of neighbouring countries. To make the case for independence you shouldn't promise we'll be better off, there's no sure way of telling, you just have to make the case strong enough that it's impossible for the unionists to prove that you'll be worse off.

Google will also tell you that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have GDP's per capita 60-90% greater than Russia's. They're also democracies which neither Russia nor poor old Ukraine are. You will recollect that I asked about democracies.

Have any of the small countries similar to us made any recent efforts to give up their independence and join an incorporating union? If the answer is no then why not?