Pricing Fans In, Sustainably?

[dondonderson80]

Generally there seems to be a trend though where in the 2000s average attendances steadily rose for most leagues and then began to decline around the late 2000s.

Happened here as well.

[EdTheDuck]

Generally there seems to be a trend though where in the 2000s average attendances steadily rose for most leagues and then began to decline around the late 2000s.

Happened here as well.

The fucking Bankers attempts to destroy the Western World certainly played its part in that, so you're probably right.

[parsforlife]

The fucking Bankers attempts to destroy the Western World certainly played its part in that, so you're probably right.

Yep, and not just then, nearly every high and low in attendance's is matched by how the country is performing economically. We have so much debate over how to get fans in etc but generally this will only affect small % of fans. the majority who do/don't turn up will do so regardless. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try of course, but it absolutely needs to be remembered that there is no silver bullet.

[dondonderson80]

You're right but stuff like this:

"In a survey conducted at the turn of the year, 88 per cent of fans canvassed stated they were against a ten-team set-up, with more than three-quarters stating a preference for an SPL of either 16 or 18 clubs"

Must surely mean something. I mean there is an extreme apathy towards playing the same team 4 times a season, that's there and it isn't going to go away if clubs earn more money or the quality of football increases slightly.

These fans aren't going to remain forever (and many have probably already been driven away), it's likely they will abandon the game eventually and that leaves a big hole in finances as well.


People have been asking for/demanding/pleading for this pretty much since we went from 16/18 to 10/12.


I really wish the SFL had tried out a 16 team second tier at some point over their history, they could have afforded to try that out and see how appealing it was to supporters.

[HibeeJibee]

Are you connecting people disliking 10, and wanting 16/18 - with more of them turning-out to watch 16/18? That's the problem... It seems more likely that fewer would turn-out. And it's 4/8 fewer games.

You also wish SFL had tried-out 16 because "they could afford to" - in what way? Fewer games and lower crowds would affect smaller clubs, too.

nearly every high and low in attendance's is matched by how the country is performing economically. We have so much debate over how to get fans in etc but generally this will only affect small % of fans. the majority who do/don't turn up will do so regardless. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try of course, but it absolutely needs to be remembered that there is no silver bullet.

Similarly chat about the matchday experience or booze or terracing... Improving the experience is a valid aim and there may be ways of getting more money out of people who already go (albeit e.g. people think standing should be cheaper). But in terms of growing crowds - how many people aren't going who will start going for a DJ, mascot, or pint?

Even cheap ticket schemes don't seem to make much of a dent. Economy has a broad influence and club success or failure a focused one. Alongwith the actual number of games, it's the latter aspect which is at the core of league size argument: experience shows people turn-out for meaningful matches.

[dondonderson80]

Are you connecting people disliking 10, and wanting 16/18 - with more of them turning-out to watch 16/18?

Look, if you have a product and people are constantly complaining about it, demanding a change to it. There's only so long they will keep demanding change before they just abandon that product entirely.

What I'm saying is football is going to lose these fans, whether it would gain more with a 16/18 league would be nothing other than pure speculation BUT it would satisfy the overwhelming number of fans who want to see bigger leagues and play the same opposition less times each season.

The SFL could quite easily have afforded to try out a 16 team second tier for a few seasons. A large amount of the teams there weren't even professional and the few who are aren't going to lose a drastic amount of funds from playing teams like Falkirk and Dunfermline two less times a season.

They didn't have the OF and TV revenue to lose, they didn't have any money in the first place to lose.

They could still try out a 16 team second tier I guess, they never will though probably.

It's feasible for the top tier but it's a lot more feasible for the second tier to try it out as the loss in revenue is miniscule and could easily be offset by dropping/selling several players.

[HibeeJibee]

I think you substantially underestimate the nature of most clubs which typically comprise our Championship.

And how possible it would be to drop/sell "several" players. These clubs are hardly running hefty squads, or turning-down offers.

Any club is going to face serious issues if one-sixth of their home games are removed, and more of the remainder are meaningless and versus smaller clubs.

[dondonderson80]

No, I'm not. I supported a club in the second tier and for short spells third tier for many years.

They had a fairly big squad for most of that time and paid those players very respectable wages. They could have released several of those players quite easily.
Our attendances against the 2 or 3 "big" clubs were marginally higher than for the rest of the "small" clubs at best.

I think you're severely overestimating the type of finances involved in playing 6 matches in the second tier of Scottish football.

[HibeeJibee]

I don't think I am.

Falkirk, Raith, Queen of the South and similar clubs would see a major impact from losing 1/6 of their revenue generators and possibly witnessing lower averages at the rest.

(Same applies to smaller Premiership clubs who will likely drop down once Rangers, Hearts and Hibs make the top tier, too).

They aren't sitting on sellable players for longer than required, and they aren't running with squads bigger than they feel necessary.

I appreciate you've a different view, so we'll agree to differ.

However - if what you're getting at, without actually saying it, is clubs like these should go part-time but it's worth it for a "big" division... they're not going to wear that.

I mentioned on another thread that only 1 season since 1905 has involved top tier clubs being guaranteed fewer than 18 home games in one form or another. And it was during WWI (1917-18), and you really must go back even earlier than 1905 as there were supplementary leagues albeit not under SFL auspices.

It is a similar story in the second tier. Only once since WWII have they had fewer than 18 home games - and it was that disastrous Spring Cup experiment of 1975-76. Clubs expect a sufficient number of games.

[dondonderson80]

Sure, if that's the only way around creating two leagues of 16 with a pyramid below this I'm all for them going PT if/when they need to.
Hell, like I said, half the teams end up/will end up needing to go PT anyway when they've spent enough time down there.

I can honestly see myself giving up on football (and I've supported Scottish football my entire life) if we don't get a 16 team/30 game top tier soon, and I know I'm far from alone.
Marginal increase in quality just isn't worth it for me.

[dondonderson80]

Hell, Queen of the South DID go PT just a season or two ago, clearly they must have turned full professional again.



http://www.scotsman.com/sport/partick-thistle-could-be-forced-to-go-part-time-as-reality-bites-1-808548

[parsforlife]

Hell, Queen of the South DID go PT just a season or two ago, clearly they must have turned full professional again.

Nope, sure someone like skyline drifter will know exactly but thay have certainly not been pt for quite a while.

[dondonderson80]

I don't see what the problem with PT is anyway.

If you read that article it dispels some of the myths surrounding PT football (such as lower player wages).


Seems like a sensible idea for a lot of clubs when they drop out of the top tier, then revert back to full professional whenever you get back in.

[parsforlife]

I don't see what the problem with PT is anyway.

If you read that article it dispels some of the myths surrounding PT football (such as lower player wages).

Seems like a sensible idea for a lot of clubs when they drop out of the top tier, then revert back to full professional whenever you get back in.

Teams don't flip/flop between pt and ft football, it creates a heck of a lot of hassle.

[dondonderson80]

1. Aberdeen
2. Celtic
3. Dundee
4. Dundee United
5. Hamilton Academical
6. Inverness Caledonian Thistle
7. Kilmarnock
8. Motherwell
9. Partick Thistle
10. Ross County
11. St Johnstone
12. St Mirren
13. Heart of Midlothian
14. Rangers
15. Dunfermline Athletic
16. Hibernian



1. Alloa Athletic
2. Falkirk
3. Livingston
4. Queen of the South
5. Raith Rovers
6. Cowdenbeath
7. Airdrieonians
8. Ayr United
9. Brechin City
10. Dumbarton
11. Forfar Athletic
12. Greenock Morton
13. Peterhead
14. Stenhousemuir
15. Stirling Albion
16. Stranraer


Seems absolutely fine to me.

Teams in the 2nd tier get more exposure and interest from fans due to being directly underneath the top tier and having a chance at promotion (as opposed to being stuck yo-yoing between League Two and League One etc.) and so become stronger over time.

Get a pyramid system going underneath that as well to feed it with potential new teams if they manage to grow.



Any team that can't survive this, shouldn't survive in my opinion.

They will be replaced.



It's not like they would be doing it every year, parsforlife. They get relegated, make the switch to PT, then in a few seasons time when they get back up they switch back to pro again.

If you're that lacking in flexibility as a business you have a real problem.

[EdTheDuck]

Re the PT/FT switch, not all the players who are PT will want to go FT and not all the players who are FT will want to go PT; it means constantly rebuilding the squad and possibly coaching and attendant staff.

Parsforlife knows what he's talking about.

[EdTheDuck]

Are you yet another ptfc80 alias?

16 doesn't provide enough games, the loss of 4 home games is significant. To compensate you either increase attendances by a little over 25% or you increase the Gate Fee by a little over 25%.

Indeed, all the historical and contemporary evidence (Norway, Sweden, Croatia, Israel) suggests that going to a 16 will reduce the number of attendees, not increase.

And regardless of what you believe the introduction of a 16 will not suddenly propel any of The Rest into title contention unless Celtic (and eventually Rangers) are considerably reduced while The Rest are not.

btw the article contradicts itself; if PT wages are pretty much what the FT players get anyway how does going PT save any money?

[parsforlife]

1. Aberdeen

2. Celtic

3. Dundee

4. Dundee United

5. Hamilton Academical

6. Inverness Caledonian Thistle

7. Kilmarnock

8. Motherwell

9. Partick Thistle

10. Ross County

11. St Johnstone

12. St Mirren

13. Heart of Midlothian

14. Rangers

15. Dunfermline Athletic

16. Hibernian

1. Alloa Athletic

2. Falkirk

3. Livingston

4. Queen of the South

5. Raith Rovers

6. Cowdenbeath

7. Airdrieonians

8. Ayr United

9. Brechin City

10. Dumbarton

11. Forfar Athletic

12. Greenock Morton

13. Peterhead

14. Stenhousemuir

15. Stirling Albion

16. Stranraer

Seems absolutely fine to me.

Teams in the 2nd tier get more exposure and interest from fans due to being directly underneath the top tier and having a chance at promotion (as opposed to being stuck yo-yoing between League Two and League One etc.) and so become stronger over time.

Get a pyramid system going underneath that as well to feed it with potential new teams if they manage to grow.

Any team that can't survive this, shouldn't survive in my opinion.

They will be replaced.

It's not like they would be doing it every year, parsforlife. They get relegated, make the switch to PT, then in a few seasons time when they get back up they switch back to pro again.

If you're that lacking in flexibility as a business you have a real problem.

Because no team ever gets promoted after 1 attempt?

How many businesses jump between having majority(or close to) of staff ft to majority pt? Nobody does it very easily.

when teams get promoted/relegated are they expected to only offer 1 year deals? Sounds an excellent way to keep your squad together and grow as club.

[EdTheDuck]

It occurs to me that the words “League Cup Group Stage” are probably rising like fart bubbles in a bath at the moment (with the same potential for spoiling the atmosphere) as a means to fill the gap for the reduction from 19 to 15 league games. They generally do; the suggestion is that by putting these games on the season ticket, the shortfall of games is immediately covered and off we jolly well go.

If the League Cup group stage was stuck on the season ticket I’d suggest that clubs will find the number of season tickets sold dropping a bit, possibly quite a bit. Given that there are now even more ‘unattractive’ fixtures on the league card allied to league cup games against possibly second and third division teams and the distinct possibility your team is going to be cruising in a fat mid-table “wait and see” and “pick and choose” may well be the watchword. Not all fans who currently attend games, even those with season tickets, are going to blindly follow and carry on buying a ST if they perceive the deal has gone sour.

[ShawfieldAggro]

Said it before and i'll say it again....3x14 gives slightly larger divisions, the same number of, or one more home match (which would fall to each of the top 7 clubs after 26 games), the opportunity to promote/relegate multiple clubs without losing ridiculous percentages of teams each year (i'd opt for the current scenario between the top two tiers, but with the second bottom club joining 2nd, 3rd & 4th at the semi final stage and no ridiculously prejudiced bye) with two automatically up/down between leagues 1 & 2, and like so with 3rd bottom joining the 3rd, 4th & 5th placed League2 clubs. For League1, in particular, it would be very difficult to find multiple clubs playing for very little but pride entering the final weeks, and in any case with seven spots concerning promotion & relegation issues, the proverbial 'three game streak' of wins/losses could open up the league further...with slightly more teams in it!