clydebank

[Grim O'Grady]

I did notice a Twitter spat a few days ago between pro-pyramid and anti-pyramid Bankies fans. Is it correct that there is something in their club constitution about one day playing in the Seniors or SFL (as was)?

In 2009 the EOS Premier went down to a Dalbeattie-Spartans last-day decider?!?!

EDIT: I see there's a thread about the idea in the Junior sub-forum. Fairly bland by usual standards except the very idea seems to have RRG "rattled" !!

That was Dalbeatties last game in the EoS, would it have changed their minds about leaving had they not got beaten 4-0 that day, or was it already written in the stars?

Grimbo

[Hillonearth]

I don't think it's indicative that there will be a rush of Junior clubs applying though. Clydebank have always been a bit of a one-off in the Juniors with their recent Senior history, and going by what I've heard from their fans that I know, their fanbase seems quite evenly split between those with a hankering to go Senior again and those who are happy where they are.

[Bookmonkey]

I don't know much about the background to the Clydebank situation other than the basics (ex member of league, reformed as Junior club). Reading between the lines on here can I assume a lot of their fans were pretty disparaging about the LL at the start?

What is their fanbase like? From that point of view would they be a good addition to the LL?

[Hillonearth]

I don't know much about the background to the Clydebank situation other than the basics (ex member of league, reformed as Junior club). Reading between the lines on here can I assume a lot of their fans were pretty disparaging about the LL at the start?

What is their fanbase like? From that point of view would they be a good addition to the LL?

I imagine they'd be the best supported team in the league were they to join - their crowds have maybe dipped a wee bit since their early days in the Juniors where they were getting 5-600 for Central Second games, but they still regularly get 3-400, and for big games a good few hundred more will show up.

In terms of being disparaging to the LL, I doubt it aside from the odd punter mouthing off on a forum. The truth of the matter in Junior circles, certainly over this side of the country is that the whole undertaking has largely flown under the radar, probably due to the geographical setup - there's minimal interest or indeed awareness, and it's not a hot topic. I'll occasionally get the odd person asking about BSC because of our groundshare setup, but that's really about it.

[WaffenThinMint]

Agree with most of the post apart from the Italian alliance bit due to family ties, (the Italian people themselves ousted the fascists as they were fed up waiting on the allies. Incidentally my second generation Italian grand father had to join the Clydebank fire service during the war because he was barred from the army) When I heard about the Clydebank thing a couple of weeks back, I thought it was a wind up. Then I thought about it, the whole BSC Glasgow thing has got a few of them rattled. They will access to SFA money that previously only Talbot and Rose could be almost assured of every year. They were only going to get stronger as the rest of the juniors (who get sweet FA from the SJFA) would fall further behind financially. Each year will see the gulf between those at the top and the rest only get wider. With this the last year of direct applications to the Lowland League, it makes complete sense that one of the bigger junior clubs who are not likely to feature in the SFA cup every year make an application. I am surprised that it is Clydebank that is first to break ranks but I think a few others will follow suit. Only a good thing in my opinion.

It's pretty clear that this sudden "born again Senior" evangelism is nothing more than a reaction to realising that they've shot their bolt in the Juniors & the only way is down.

They squandered money to climb the greasy poll, but without any proper infrastructure in place (eg. a ground of their own to hire out to make extra money from to reinvest in the club) they were doomed to splutter out once they were simply another club in a league (even if the top tier), the glory days would be few, & thus their AHDD teenie fanbase lost interest without a ceaseless series of "bragging rights" to keep them supporting "Bankies evermore".

This has long been the bane of the Junior circuit, where either a club acquires a teenie "street team" with plenty of money to milk (& running endless successful fundraisers) or a sugar daddy wanting to play Football Manager Reality Mod. They get a few years - sometimes even a decade - on the back of it of noteable success, but they end up caught in a vicious cycle of short termism where buying the best players becomes the be all & end all because they know their fickle support will desert the moment results start to flag. The Meadows, Talbots, Linlithgows & Sauchies are rare birds indeed.

Had Clydebank contemplated joining the LL for any other reason, I would have been delighted.

But no - not this. Not out of some harebrained notion that if they join the LL, the Fairy Cockwomble will flick his magic wand raining down from Hampden on high sweetmeats, block grants & automatic entry to the money spinning Scottish Cup & all their troubles will be over: for that is the sum total of their interest in the LL. "Converts" like that the league can well do without.

I'd sooner the likes of Girvan - who at least kept their senior status even when pragmatics forced them out of the SOS - be given first dabs, not a shower of wannabe "Hampden benefits" scroungers with nothing to show for themselves but fickle teenie fans (already starting to dissipate now many of them are no longer teenies anymore as well as their decline in fortunes) and renting a flytip ground from a side perpetually happy to wallow in its own filth. Clydebank need tough love, being told "no, you will not jump ship to the LL simply to take - come back when you have that ground of your own you've been telling everyone is "imminent" for eighteen years."

Sorry btw folks if I'm coming across Oscar The Grouch on this, but seriously I think they've a colossal gall.

[F_T_Y]

When the club was started again in the Junior ranks the aim of the trust was to get back to senior football so you are off the mark with your "shot our bolt"

comments.

In my opinion if we had our own ground then it would be a no brainier to apply for a place, as it is we only have rumours that have been heard before.

[WaffenThinMint]

When the club was started again in the Junior ranks the aim of the trust was to get back to senior football so you are off the mark with your "shot our bolt"

comments.

In my opinion if we had our own ground then it would be a no brainier to apply for a place, as it is we only have rumours that have been heard before.

But that's just it: once you started climbing the Junior leagues & getting great runs in the Junior Cup, the word to the media quite clearly was those aims were shelved and you were happy to become one of the biggest Junior sides as before again - all talk of returning to the Seniors was shelved. FFS, in the half time interviews on BBC Alba when you reached the Junior Cup final, those interviewed for Clydebank made it clear the club's ambitions lay solely in the Juniors. It's pretty hard to get past the change of tune being something to do with a descending note down Holm Park way...

Like you say, had Clydebank a ground in place, different story: but the current talk about joining the LL is being done for all the wrong reasons; and if any of the blindly optimistic are thinking (as I suspect) that the WDC will magic the Bankies up a ground if they join the LL on the prospect of profitting if they rejoin the Scottish League, they're going to be sore disappointed.

[H Wragg]

When the club was started again in the Junior ranks the aim of the trust was to get back to senior football so you are off the mark with your "shot our bolt"

comments.

In my opinion if we had our own ground then it would be a no brainier to apply for a place, as it is we only have rumours that have been heard before.

So, is there a new ground in the pipeline as alluded to earlier in this thread?

[F_T_Y]

The lowland league wasn't around when we were climbing the leagues so the super league was the limit.Now that it has come along it gives junior teams the chance to move up.Some teams are proud of there junior history and have no interest in change.Thats fine.But if some teams want to apply (not be given first dabs) then it is up to them.

Regarding the ground situation i don't live in the area so only going what i have read on forums.Until something is set in stone i won't be getting excited.

[HTG]

The lowland league wasn't around when we were climbing the leagues so the super league was the limit.Now that it has come along it gives junior teams the chance to move up.Some teams are proud of there junior history and have no interest in change.Thats fine.But if some teams want to apply (not be given first dabs) then it is up to them.

Regarding the ground situation i don't live in the area so only going what i have read on forums.Until something is set in stone i won't be getting excited.

Good luck to you if you go for it. I can't abide this "wha's like us Juniors" bollocks. It's all non league football and if you think your club can progress better in the Lowland League then why would you not give it a run.

[Mr Hardy]

I've no problem with any team applying to join the LL.

But if there are only two places up for grabs then the LL set up is obviously waiting/hoping for two of the top guns from the Juniors to apply.But what happens if the top teams don't apply do two teams get allowed in to make up the numbers.

What is the overall aim for the LL, eventually have two divisions?

Surely can't just have 16 teams with no relegation as the danger would be the bottom teams would just stagnate.

How many 'Juniors' would be close to an SFA licence?

Then out of those how many are showing any interest in leaving the junior set-up.

[HTG]

I've no problem with any team applying to join the LL.

But if there are only two places up for grabs then the LL set up is obviously waiting/hoping for two of the top guns from the Juniors to apply.But what happens if the top teams don't apply do two teams get allowed in to make up the numbers.

What is the overall aim for the LL, eventually have two divisions?

Surely can't just have 16 teams with no relegation as the danger would be the bottom teams would just stagnate.

How many 'Juniors' would be close to an SFA licence?

Then out of those how many are showing any interest in leaving the junior set-up.

The relegation is already set up and happening this season. The Juniors have declared themselves irrelevant. The LL isn't bothered about the Juniors any more - if they had been they wouldn't have taken in BSC last season when they didn't have a ground, a licence or a team.

The entire set up will replicate the non league seniors with some additions. If a Junior team like Clydebank comes along then fine. If they don't, also fine.

I've said repeatedly on here that the Juniors will eventually realise that they've lost their place in the pecking order of Scottish football but they don't seem worried by that at all. The fact is that if there is funding available in the non league environment, it will all go to the HFL and LL. The Juniors will just need to get by as they are - running their prestige competition in such a way that the vast majority of clubs lose money taking part. Imagine if clubs had to pay to be in the Champions League ...

The whole arrangement is deeply unsatisfactory. The LL doesn't have the 5th tier quality it should have within its catchment area and the Juniors are sticking their fingers in their ears and hoping everything will be as it aye was. But nobody in a position of influence has the balls to call any of this out. There are teams in the LL who should be nowhere near Tier 5 of Scottish football but nobody is willing to tackle the challenge and drive through integration. It can be done but it's all too cosy and I remain convinced that within the SFA they don't want the Juniors anywhere near the LL.

[Cicero]

I cannot see the Lowland League ever having two divisions.

By default it seems that the EoS and SoS leagues will become the feeder leagues. However in my opinion the ideal structure would have the junior east and west super leagues feeding into the Lowland League with the East and South leagues being integrated into a unified structure. However that is not going to happen soon (if ever) as most of the big junior clubs seem to be happy staying at their level. I get the impression that the bigger junior clubs do not want to move "higher" as they believe that they will lose something unique about being identified as a junior club.

The vast majority of junior clubs would not notice any difference if they became part of the pyramid structure just like the majority of the South and East clubs will not notice any difference when their leagues will become officially recognised as feeder leagues.

I am not sure if there has been a time limit set on applications to join the Lowland League or if once sixteen teams had been reached then only champions of the South and East leagues may be considered for membership. Perhaps no applicants will be successful at the end of this season thus the possibility of further applications being considered after next season.

PS what has happened to Lurker? He is usually all over this type of topic like a rash.

[Cicero]

The relegation is already set up and happening this season. The Juniors have declared themselves irrelevant. The LL isn't bothered about the Juniors any more - if they had been they wouldn't have taken in BSC last season when they didn't have a ground, a licence or a team.

.

I actually think it is part of a Baldrick type cunning plan or just a huge gamble.

If it pays off and BSC prove to be a viable proposition and are sustainable in the long term then it will show those junior clubs who are not likely to get Scottish Cup money most years, what can be done if they join the pyramid. As you well know, you only have to say that you are part of the pyramid to get licenced.

I was sceptical about their admission to the league initially but I am now believing that it is a masterstroke by the board of the league.

[HoppingMad]

How will relegation work at the end of this season.

Would the relegated team not feel a bit aggrieved, not only at being relegated but also seeing two other new teams join the league.

Didn't know relegation was in place, or at least wasn't expecting it with the number of teams still needing expanding.

[HTG]

I actually think it is part of a Baldrick type cunning plan or just a huge gamble. If it pays off and BSC prove to be a viable proposition and are sustainable in the long term then it will show those junior clubs who are not likely to get Scottish Cup money most years, what can be done if they join the pyramid. As you well know, you only have to say that you are part of the pyramid to get licenced. I was sceptical about their admission to the league initially but I am now believing that it is a masterstroke by the board of the league.

I think it's tighter than that. Using that line without actually committing is not going to work. And there is no way a club in the Junior structure can say that it's part of the pyramid - nor indeed committed to it when they make a decision to remain within an organisation which is making no effort at all to be part of the pyramid and indeed is actively endorsing an alternative new structure. I'm aware of one club who have considered licencing but been dissuaded by a conversation with the SFA.

[Cicero]

I think it's tighter than that. Using that line without actually committing is not going to work. And there is no way a club in the Junior structure can say that it's part of the pyramid - nor indeed committed to it when they make a decision to remain within an organisation which is making no effort at all to be part of the pyramid and indeed is actively endorsing an alternative new structure.

That is what I meant. For the vast majority of clubs, promotion to the SPFL is never going to happen. However if they are playing in a structure that is part of the pyramid, they can get their licence (assuming all the other criteria are met). Access to SFA funding may seem more attractive than remaining part of the junior set up where (I believe) there is next to no funds for the majority.

BSC and East Kilbride will have access to another revenue stream denied to 95% of the juniors (assuming BSC will get their licence). Despite the sniping they both received at their acceptance to the Lowland League along with the comments that the league itself has been devalued, a few junior club treasurers will be looking at them with envious eyes.

[WaffenThinMint]

I cannot see the Lowland League ever having two divisions.

By default it seems that the EoS and SoS leagues will become the feeder leagues. However in my opinion the ideal structure would have the junior east and west super leagues feeding into the Lowland League with the East and South leagues being integrated into a unified structure. However that is not going to happen soon (if ever) as most of the big junior clubs seem to be happy staying at their level. I get the impression that the bigger junior clubs do not want to move "higher" as they believe that they will lose something unique about being identified as a junior club.

The vast majority of junior clubs would not notice any difference if they became part of the pyramid structure just like the majority of the South and East clubs will not notice any difference when their leagues will become officially recognised as feeder leagues.

I am not sure if there has been a time limit set on applications to join the Lowland League or if once sixteen teams had been reached then only champions of the South and East leagues may be considered for membership. Perhaps no applicants will be successful at the end of this season thus the possibility of further applications being considered after next season.

PS what has happened to Lurker? He is usually all over this type of topic like a rash.

1. Aye, and it's called "being first place"!

2. He's probably away somewhere else on the internet defending some group of moronic bigots as "a part of genuine working class culture" needing protected or something. Mind you, this whole new Clydebank business is a brasser for the Junior purists like LTL, watching one of yesterday's proud naysayers of the LL abruptly changing tack out of convenience, begging the question how many others swearing their undying loyalty to the Juniors are planning to apply for those last two spots.

[Bankies Alive]

So Waffle would rather have Girvan in the LL who are watched by 2 men and a dog than a club with at least 250 regulars and probably about 5 teenies.

I didnt know that there was a clause in applying whereby any club had to pass the Waffle code of ethics and eligibilty criteria either.

[H Wragg]

As an outsider looking in, I find myself falling into the camp of those that are surprised that people are surprised that some of the Bankies fans have ambitions of returning to the SPFL scene.

When I was starting out going to games Clydebank had a season in the Scottish Premier Division and played in a Scottish Cup semi final against Celtic at Hampden.

If that's the level that people were once used to, it's hardly surprising that they want to return to it, especially given the circumstances that brought about the club's demise.