Fotbawmad Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) As much as I don't like being in the EU, there is more justification for remaining in it than there is for the union. If Cameron does give us a referendum in 2017, which I highly doubt. Expect more hysteria from the BBC about how the sky will fall if we leave the EU. Edited October 21, 2014 by Fotbawmad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 As much as I don't like being in the EU, there is more justification for remaining in it than there is for the union. If we Cameron does give us a referendum in 2017, which I highly doubt. Expect more hysteria from the BBC about how the sky will fall if we leave the EU. He has made a solid pledge on a referendum given a win in the May election. I would welcome that and I somehow suspect England (and Wales, etc) will probably vote narrowly to come out, but that Scotland could very well tip the scales by voting in big numbers to stay in. The only way there won't be a referendum will be that come May, England votes for UKIP in sufficient numbers to let that slimy b*****d Milliballs get in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elixir Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 As much as I don't like being in the EU, there is more justification for remaining in it than there is for the union. If we Cameron does give us a referendum in 2017, which I highly doubt. Expect more hysteria from the BBC about how the sky will fall if we leave the EU. The same BBC who have done nothing but pander to UKIP for the past twelve months? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsdad Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 It'll be like the last days of indyref. Banks, big companies all threatening to leave the UK taking jobs and money with them. I for one want us to stay in the EU. I've benefited massively through it and agree with it's founding principles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I like how the UK Government told us that Scotland would be foolish to break away from its largest trade partner. The UK government doesn't want to leave the EU. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Becuase that's exactly what the British Union, as opposed to the EU, actually is. Really? You think the EU is a model of how to build a union? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkston5 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The UK government doesn't want to leave the EU. Exactly. Surely people must be suspicious that Cameron has offered a referendum in 2017 and that he never mentioned it until he was pressed on the subject. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Really? You think the EU is a model of how to build a union? It's very far from perfect but a damn sight better balanced than the british one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotbawmad Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) The same BBC who have done nothing but pander to UKIP for the past twelve months? By trying to give the public the impression they're no different from a certain National Socialists German Workers Party? Edited October 21, 2014 by Fotbawmad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 It's very far from perfect but a damn sight better balanced than the british one. Is it? In what way? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Is it? In what way? The constituent states of the EU have much more sovereignty than the constituent parts of the UK with correspondingly larger room for manouvere over their fiscal and social policies, as well as being able to dictate their own foreign relations as well. If we are simply taking Reynard's comment - comparing the two, I know which one is more likely to fit the description of 'centralised statist nightmare' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I did always find it odd that most yes voters I know are also pro-EU (most yes voters I know are the left-wing 'I'm a yes voter, but not a nationalist' sort). Their basic argument seemed to be that they wanted to end London rule, but apparently were happy with Brussels rule. I would vote to remain in the EU for basically the same reasons I voted to remain in the UK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I did always find it odd that most yes voters I know are also pro-EU (most yes voters I know are the left-wing 'I'm a yes voter, but not a nationalist' sort). Their basic argument seemed to be that they wanted to end London rule, but apparently were happy with Brussels rule. I would vote to remain in the EU for basically the same reasons I voted to remain in the UK. Nothing odd about it. The independence movement was never about isolationism, it was about the flexibility inherent in greater sovereignty in picking your interdependencies with others. So long as the various sovereign nations on these islands were EU members then the current free trade movmement between such notional sovereign nations would remain the same. i.e. you could ditch the poltiical union between nations on the islands without scarfiicing the economic union between neighbours. it's a nonsense to try and conflate the EU with the UK in terms of what each offers in terms of local sovereignty. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I did always find it odd that most yes voters I know are also pro-EU (most yes voters I know are the left-wing 'I'm a yes voter, but not a nationalist' sort). Their basic argument seemed to be that they wanted to end London rule, but apparently were happy with Brussels rule. I would vote to remain in the EU for basically the same reasons I voted to remain in the UK. It's not at all contradictory to be supportive of the creation of a sovereign state to be established and having them be part of any intergovermental organisations. In the context of the EU, you could even stretch to making an argument that makes supporting independence key to a stronger European Union. Over the coming years, we may find that secession movements change the nature of the EU to become more federal where nation states have less importance than individual regions. At that stage, if you were a pro European Scot, what would be the point of having Westminster in between Holyrood and Brussels. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Nothing odd about it. The independence movement was never about isolationism, it was about the flexibility inherent in greater sovereignty in picking your interdependencies with others. So long as the various sovereign nations on these islands were EU members then the current free trade movmement between such notional sovereign nations would remain the same. i.e. you could ditch the poltiical union between nations on the islands without scarfiicing the economic union between neighbours. it's a nonsense to try and conflate the EU with the UK in terms of what each offers in terms of local sovereignty. The independence campaign (from those on the left) basically boiled down to the idea that people in Scotland were best placed to make decisions for Scotland. Hence all the anger about the 'democratic deficit' etc. In what way does this not apply to the EU? (This is a genuine question, not trying to be argumentative or point score or anything like that, my knowledge of the EU and how it actually operates is poor) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The independence campaign (from those on the left) basically boiled down to the idea that people in Scotland were best placed to make decisions for Scotland. Hence all the anger about the 'democratic deficit' etc. In what way does this not apply to the EU? (This is a genuine question, not trying to be argumentative or point score or anything like that, my knowledge of the EU and how it actually operates is poor) The issue here is assuming that " people in Scotland were best placed to make decisions for Scotland" must require an isolationist approach to things. The reality is that there are levels of dependencies and interdependecies in the modern world which are simply unnavoidable. The EU is, despite the rhetoric, reasonably hands off. There are EU regulations and laws, decided upon both at the EU parliament and in intergovernmental summits, but that's the point, they are decided together. The constituent nations in the EU maintain most of their basic sovereignty and collectively decide on how to co-operate on the rest. The UK is a unitary centralised state that offers little in the way of sovereignty to it's constituent parts (of course, one issue here is that the original languag eof the Union didn't recognise constituent nations, however, the character of these persisted in spite of that). That phrase " people in Scotland were best placed to make decisions for Scotland" may be quite absolutionist, but really it's about degrees of freedom in the system. If you believe in Scotland as a sovereign country then the UK is an appalingly suffocating structure to be stuck in with respect to the EU. Again, perspective here is important. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 There are EU regulations and laws, decided upon both at the EU parliament and in intergovernmental summits, but that's the point, they are decided together. In what way is UK law not "decided together"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) In what way is UK law not "decided together"?It is but when you're joined to a partner who's 10x the size then it can't really be considered voting together. If Davie gets his way on the West Lothian question that will further dilute the pishy "family of nations" rhetoric. Edited October 21, 2014 by AUFC90 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 It is but when you're joined to a partner who's 10x the size then it can't really be considered voting together. If Davie gets his way on the West Lothian question that will further dilute the pishy "family of nations" rhetoric. The SNP wanted Scotland to be in the European union. How much bigger is that than Scotland? How would you feel if English MPs were able to vote on matters devolved to Holyrood? Would you whine like a little bitch as usual? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 It is but when you're joined to a partner who's 10x the size then it can't really be considered voting together. If Davie gets his way on the West Lothian question that will further dilute the pishy "family of nations" rhetoric. EU population is around 500million. Scotland is around 5.5million. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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