Reynard Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 This is the politics forum and there doesn't seem to be a thread about this institution. So I started it. Should be quite an interesting time coming up.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinkinFighter Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 A thread about the collapse of the Euro would also be interesting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForzaDundee Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Why is Cameron arguing with José Manuel Barroso? I thought that British Nationalists thought that Barroso's opinion was final on all matters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haggis pakora Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Why is Cameron arguing with José Manuel Barroso? I thought that British Nationalists thought that Barroso's opinion was final on all matters. The SNP didn't though did they... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) I'm not convinced there's a widespread appetite for leaving the EU. A lot of people moan about it and the voices to leave are certainly more prominent, but I don't think it crops up on many people's radar. The EU got a kick in Britain, France and Italy (three of its big four) at the EU elections, but certainly here that was on the standard shit turnout. The failure to have a sensible debate (i.e. not Clegg's nonsense about 3 million jobs) on the EU is part of the reason UKIP have made some gains lately. However, I actually think they're undermining the Eurosceptic case. They are widely viewed as lunatics and are nigh-on universally despised by everyone who doesn't vote for them. I also can't see the day we get a referendum on it, sadly. Even if the Conservatives do get an unlikely majority I fully expect Cameron to bottle it. He is happy to bemoan the EU and it's rules but has no intention of leaving it; that's more or less the way I see the public. Edited October 20, 2014 by Michael W 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 This chap always writes well and with knowledge of his subject http://www.rickackerman.com/2014/10/the-death-rattle-of-europes-statist-dream/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I like how the UK Government told us that Scotland would be foolish to break away from its largest trade partner. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 I like how the UK Government told us that Scotland would be foolish to break away from its largest trade partner. I like how the Scottish public took note of this and voted to send the separatists homeward tae think again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I like how the UK Government told us that Scotland would be foolish to break away from its largest trade partner. I like how this union is bad, but the European one is good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Ive been changing my views on the EU in recent times. I was a definite get the f**k out type for long enough. But I think there's probably some merit in staying in there although it does look like a struggling mess of a place thats likely to drag us all under at the moment. Once the statist bit goes tits up (and its going to) there will still hopefully be a free trading free movement area to be enjoyed. Hopefully all the nationalist c***s Europe wide that had sprung up off the back of their states toiling will f**k off back into their collective boxes and free trade and freedom of movement nails the lid shut. I still have absolutely no idea why the Scottish nationalists wanted to break away from a union that has made Scotland wealthy only to be told to sit in the European corner and shut the f**k up by a statist nightmare of a Union that is going to have plooky students of the future writing essays on how not to build a union. Always seemed odd. A shame XBL melted down so badly a few months ago and also disappeared totally from twitter after the no vote as he was cheerleader in chief (even though he didnt understand why) of this scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haggis pakora Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I like how the UK Government told us that Scotland would be foolish to break away from its largest trade partner. But..bu...b,I thought the SNP did not want to be part of a union...well thats what they told us,untill they where flashing there bare arses at the EU. Clowns too a man. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Thing is, most of the good bits (free trade and movement) don't really need the EU. They could be implemented by agreements from national government to national government, and could even be extended to non-EU states if there was political will on both sides. The EU is far too slow in negotiating to removing trade barriers (mostly because of the amount of member states) and the UK/Germany/Spain etc wouldn't have that problem in isolation. The answer to every crisis also seems to be 'more integration' or 'more Europe'. Hasn't 'Europe' - or at least the Euro - done enough damage to at least four of its member states? And yes, the likes of Greece should never have been allowed into the Euro, but they were, probably as part of some sort of federalist dream. If we do get out of the EU, it won't be because we vote to leave it. It'll fall down from the inside. Edited October 20, 2014 by Michael W 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Thing is, most of the good bits (free trade and movement) don't really need the EU. They could be implemented by agreements from national government to national government, and could even be extended to non-EU states if there was political will on both sides. The EU is far too slow in negotiating to removing trade barriers (mostly because of the amount of member states) and the UK/Germany/Spain etc wouldn't have that problem in isolation. The answer to every crisis also seems to be 'more integration' or 'more Europe'. Hasn't 'Europe' - or at least the Euro - done enough damage to at least four of its member states? And yes, the likes of Greece should never have been allowed into the Euro, but they were, probably as part of some sort of federalist dream. If we do get out of the EU, it won't be because we vote to leave it. It'll fall down from the inside. Thats the way I feel about it. Its not going to be us leaving any time soon, we are baw deep in this too now and in the unlikely event of a Tory government in May even if there WAS a referendum we would vote to remain in it, Cameron and his ministers would undoubtedly be campaigning to stay in and the UK state machine will be deployed to make sure that we do. Thats not really the issue now anyway. Id vote to come out but id be in the minority anyway. The real problems are that the institutions foundations are not well built. And it cant cope with the financial problems engulfing it. Theres no proper leadership and no facility to make fiscal transfers to areas that need the help, Thats why the euro project (without serious reform) will fail. In spite of our nationalists whining, our particular union allows fiscal transfers and money can flow easily to areas requiring special help for whatever reason. The USA has a similar facility, the EU does not. Hence forced austerity on many of the member states and no simply firing off help as needed to help stabilise things or at least try to, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Ive been changing my views on the EU in recent times. I was a definite get the f**k out type for long enough. But I think there's probably some merit in staying in there although it does look like a struggling mess of a place thats likely to drag us all under at the moment. Thats the way I feel about it. Its not going to be us leaving any time soon, we are baw deep in this too now and in the unlikely event of a Tory government in May even if there WAS a referendum we would vote to remain in it, Cameron and his ministers would undoubtedly be campaigning to stay in and the UK state machine will be deployed to make sure that we do. Thats not really the issue now anyway. Id vote to come out but id be in the minority anyway. You certainly are changing your views on Europe - even just since you started this thread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 The answer to every crisis also seems to be 'more integration' or 'more Europe'. Hasn't 'Europe' - or at least the Euro - done enough damage to at least four of its member states? And yes, the likes of Greece should never have been allowed into the Euro, but they were, probably as part of some sort of federalist dream. Erm no, you might want to actually check up on the histories of Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland etc. before they were included in the EU (hint: they were all backward, economic black holes, three of which were also dangerously authoritarian, corrupt dumps). You can whine about the pace of European integration if you like, but you will not find a majority of opinion in any of the above states, nor those in eastern Europe, who actually long for a return to the days when their own corrupt political elites ran the entire shop. Nor do their populaces wish to leave the Euro, because they know fine well that paying for imports like oil in a clown currency like the drachma is not economically preferable. The biggest bitching about the EU is rather unsurprisingly found among the chippy post-imperial set, and their concern about the poor southern Europeans are crocodile tears. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todders Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 You certainly are changing your views on Europe - even just since you started this thread. Reynard doesn't actually have any views on anything. He just says whatever he thinks will get the biggest reaction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 You certainly are changing your views on Europe - even just since you started this thread. You certainly are changing your views on Europe - even just since you started this thread. Don't be stupid and try and keep the thread about Europe instead of the usual ad hominem pish that seems to be infesting the place. If you have something to contribute then post it up. If you just want to give me grief then get to f**k. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Ive been changing my views on the EU in recent times. I was a definite get the f**k out type for long enough. But I think there's probably some merit in staying in there although it does look like a struggling mess of a place thats likely to drag us all under at the moment. Once the statist bit goes tits up (and its going to) there will still hopefully be a free trading free movement area to be enjoyed. Hopefully all the nationalist c***s Europe wide that had sprung up off the back of their states toiling will f**k off back into their collective boxes and free trade and freedom of movement nails the lid shut. I still have absolutely no idea why the Scottish nationalists wanted to break away from a union that has made Scotland wealthy only to be told to sit in the European corner and shut the f**k up by a statist nightmare of a Union that is going to have plooky students of the future writing essays on how not to build a union. Always seemed odd. A shame XBL melted down so badly a few months ago and also disappeared totally from twitter after the no vote as he was cheerleader in chief (even though he didnt understand why) of this scenario. Becuase that's exactly what the British Union, as opposed to the EU, actually is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Don't be stupid and try and keep the thread about Europe instead of the usual ad hominem pish that seems to be infesting the place. If you have something to contribute then post it up. If you just want to give me grief then get to f**k. Okay. So basically you think there is some merit in the UK remaining in the EU, and also that in the event of a referendum we will very likely vote to stay put. But you will be voting to come out.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) There's more chance that that massive Willy Hill called London going tits up with sterling plummeting like no tomorrow than there is of the EU and the Euro going tits up IMO. Edited October 21, 2014 by AUFC90 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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