South Challenge Cup - 2014-15

[newcastle broon]

Not just you Newky. Everyone who replied on this open forum So you would like Whitehill to go back to the Welfare leagues or a move to the juniors? That bit was a dig at someone who never comments on a game that he has been to and does not admit to following any particular team. I think he is Lurker in disguise. At the beginning of your post, you were saying that there was more money to be made locally now you are wanting the cup competition to be played nationally from the start. A bit inconsistent here Newky.

Not inconsistent at all cic.

You know exactly what I meant,certain local teams would bring a lot more finance to Ferguson park than the LL will ever provide ?

So what's your thoughts on Sunday amateur teams travelling all round the country for their biggest trophy yet ours is regionalised ?

[Grim O'Grady]

We have the same debates every season & will continue to have them unless the winter weather changes somewhat. Alternatives have been mooted before but until the clubs & the powers that be agree on a change then we are stuck with it.

I still think that having a Cup weekend at somewhere like ours or Gala, well anywhere with an astro pitch & facilities has got to be a winner? You could easy have 2 games on Saturday & 2 on Sunday, fans could be offered a single match ticket a day ticket or a weekend ticket.

So with us & Gala that would be 8 ties done & dusted in one weekend. Yes I know there's the issues but there's a lot of positives.

I for one would get a weekend pass for the Northern section. So that's at least one more fan at all the non Spartan matches. I'm sure there'd be plenty others too.

The fixture backlog argument would be a thing of the past.

Grimbo

[tamthebam]

What's so good about Whitehill owning their ground anyway? I just think they could come to some arrangement with Midlothian Council, get one of those coal improvement grants, stick a nice wee 3G pitch in there, have some lights and there'd be a good facility for the locals of Rosewell to use all year round.

I suppose owning the ground means you could flog it off at some point for housing and get a ground built off the back of that but a) is the ground that Fergie Park is built on suitable for housing? and b) is that a likely scenario?

[surely not!]

We have the same debates every season & will continue to have them unless the winter weather changes somewhat. Alternatives have been mooted before but until the clubs & the powers that be agree on a change then we are stuck with it.

I still think that having a Cup weekend at somewhere like ours or Gala, well anywhere with an astro pitch & facilities has got to be a winner? You could easy have 2 games on Saturday & 2 on Sunday, fans could be offered a single match ticket a day ticket or a weekend ticket.

So with us & Gala that would be 8 ties done & dusted in one weekend. Yes I know there's the issues but there's a lot of positives.

I for one would get a weekend pass for the Northern section. So that's at least one more fan at all the non Spartan matches. I'm sure there'd be plenty others too.

The fixture backlog argument would be a thing of the past.

Grimbo

Ultimately this is a good idea but only in the way of clearing a backlog, not just like the super league magic weekend(rugby league not some junior fitba invention) IMO.

However grim, tribalism and traditionalism will continue to hold back almost all new ideas- whether crackpot or actually quite good.

[HibeeJibee]

As I recall, the last time Grim made a pitch for games to be moved to Ainslie Park "en masse" - the next day the artificial surface at said ground was passed unplayable due to it being frozen in the corner under the clubhouse ...

If games are postponed several weeks running they almost invariably end-up being reversed or both clubs agreeing on a neutral venue anyway, which is fair enough. In recent years I can recall Selkirk reversing a tie to Spartans, a Vale-Selkirk tie being sent to Poltonhall and a Leith-Ormiston being sent tie to Ainslie Park. But only 5 games were off last week and only 2 games were off yesterday, so it would clearly have been a crazy idea to cram all 16 ties onto the handful of artificial pitches on the first go in the middle of November.

That would have made a tonne of money for Spartans, GFR etc. but have cost everyone else money (particularly the home clubs), owing to the need to pay rentals and travel, and miss-out the income which would be generated from a home tie with a higher crowd and the possibility for bar/pie/programmes sales and perhaps hospitality and matchday sponsorship. As stated above, it would be a solution to a prolonged backlog, though. And it generally happens de facto with individual ties if they've dragged-on beyond the rest.

I agree with Cicero about the scheduling point. As I said last week, IMO the rigid "try again every week" thing seems unsuited to the new age of pyramids and LL, floodlights, coach travel, match sponsorship and hospitality, etc. It really could be more flexible.

NB has inadvertently answered his own by saying the SCC is the biggest tournament "apart from"? That's the point, surely, apart from. Many of the clubs are in the Scottish Cup and his example of a local Rosewell team is in the Scottish Sunday Amateur Cup... Without a financial subsidy it seems that not enough clubs want another fully long-distance cup in the shape of the SCC. But it would only take 2 (1?) clubs to propose restoring a total All-In format. Personally, I'd go All-In from Last 16.

[The Mantis]

What's so good about Whitehill owning their ground anyway? I just think they could come to some arrangement with Midlothian Council, get one of those coal improvement grants, stick a nice wee 3G pitch in there, have some lights and there'd be a good facility for the locals of Rosewell to use all year round.

I suppose owning the ground means you could flog it off at some point for housing and get a ground built off the back of that but a) is the ground that Fergie Park is built on suitable for housing? and b) is that a likely scenario?

Don't think anybody was saying it was good Tam. Good in some respects but a liability in others.

No the ground can't be flogged off. If WW ever goes under then the council gets it but it must be used for football/recreation, I forget which.

[Wilky1878]

Peebles return from their year's ban, and it's BSCG's first-ever cup-tie, v SOS leaders Lochar.

Why were they banned?

[tamthebam]

Don't think anybody was saying it was good Tam. Good in some respects but a liability in others.

No the ground can't be flogged off. If WW ever goes under then the council gets it but it must be used for football/recreation, I forget which.

Thanks for that- bit puzzled about the bit I've put in bold. You mean there's other forms of recreation other than football....?

[Cicero]

Don't think anybody was saying it was good Tam. Good in some respects but a liability in others.

No the ground can't be flogged off. If WW ever goes under then the council gets it but it must be used for football/recreation, I forget which.

I am pretty sure that there is something similar covering Raydale. That is why after the collapse of the old club and the sale of the ground to a developer, that there is not a housing development there now.

[HibeeJibee]

Why were they banned?

As I recall... in the 2012-13 First Round they got humped off Leith, but were lucky if they fielded enough eligible players for a 5-aside team, hence the punishment.

There'll be a thread somewhere on here about the saga, they were in a bit of a crisis at the time.

[surely not!]

That bit was a dig at someone who never comments on a game that he has been to and does not admit to following any particular team. I think he is Lurker in disguise.

Sorry for the late response, been trawling all the other forums under my various different accounts.......

At the beginning of your post, you were saying that there was more money to be made locally now you are wanting the cup competition to be played nationally from the start. A bit inconsistent here Newky.

It's not. Newky is very clear in his belief that the major cup competition that covers the whole of the south area should be exactly that from the start- a competition in which all teams have the opportunity to draw all others. He had the same beliefs when the eos and sos were the only leagues prior to the LL. His point is clear- play in regional leagues but if you choose to enter( and that's what teams do, they aren't forced) a competition played on a larger geographical area then accept that the draw will throw up trips that may have considerable expenses attached. If you don't want to do that, don't enter.

And don't get me started on the relative ease of making the quarters from the south west section........

In it's current format it is no more than two separate regional qualifying cup competitions to then enter the challenge cup at the q/f stage and perhaps should be renamed as such?

[Cicero]

At the next Whitehill AGM, Newky can propose to the committee to make a representation to the SFA for a rule change in the South Regional cup for less local matches. At the same AGM he can also propose to the committee to join the SJFA for more local matches for increased income. This is my genuine interpretation of what he is saying.

At least with Newky, I know he wants the best for Whitehill and whether it be more income or less chance to get knocked out of a cup by Spartans, Edin City or Stirling.

If you are not happy with the current set up as well, you can get your club to propose a change or as you said get them not to enter, oh wait, I don't think Scotland gets a vote.

[surely not!]

At the next Whitehill AGM, Newky can propose to the committee to make a representation to the SFA for a rule change in the South Regional cup for less local matches. At the same AGM he can also propose to the committee to join the SJFA for more local matches for increased income. This is my genuine interpretation of what he is saying.

At least with Newky, I know he wants the best for Whitehill and whether it be more income or less chance to get knocked out of a cup by Spartans, Edin City or Stirling.

If you are not happy with the current set up as well, you can get your club to propose a change or as you said get them not to enter, oh wait, I don't think Scotland gets a vote.

Perhaps I will. All I have to do is walk along the corridor at hampden when work takes me there and where I get my Scotland allegiance on the team supported from.

So, you can't have an opinion on the game and how to better develop it unless my avatar says who I support? Better make sure we don't put anyone in charge of the game at the top level unless we know what team he supports first. Petty, childish from you cic- and I thought better of you but 'I'm no showing you mine til you show me yours' is sad on your behalf.

[Cicero]

Perhaps I will. All I have to do is walk along the corridor at hampden when work takes me there and where I get my Scotland allegiance on the team supported from.

So, you can't have an opinion on the game and how to better develop it unless my avatar says who I support? Better make sure we don't put anyone in charge of the game at the top level unless we know what team he supports first. Petty, childish from you cic- and I thought better of you but 'I'm no showing you mine til you show me yours' is sad on your behalf.

Yes it may be sad on my part but it does affect they way that you interact with someone. When you know the team someone is associated with, you can at least judge where they are coming from. When you hide behind the my team Scotland you come across as somebody who has something to hide.

[surely not!]

Yes it may be sad on my part but it does affect they way that you interact with someone. When you know the team someone is associated with, you can at least judge where they are coming from. When you hide behind the my team Scotland you come across as somebody who has something to hide.

Sorry about your insecurities. Read everything I've posted- it's almost always a proper honest and unbiased ( not tainted by an allegiance) comment- granted there are a few that have been to raise a laugh or take the mick but that's the nature of a forum.

Genuinely only looking to improve the quality of football in this country and as such I see games across the different grades which is why I post at times on eos and junior forums. Feel it's shame that my comments don't count as I have scotland as my team. So would all the top brass at the SFA, including those running the game in this country

[HibeeJibee]

Perhaps I will. All I have to do is walk along the corridor at hampden when work takes me there

(Pedantry alert) - you'd likely just get a blank look.

I don't think the SFA has anything to do with it other than still having their initials in the cup's title !!

[surely not!]

(Pedantry alert) - you'd likely just get a blank look.

I don't think the SFA has anything to do with it other than still having their initials in the cup's title !!

I'd likely get a blank look even if they did- not sure how many of the suits even knew of the competition when they were involved in it!

[HibeeJibee]

You're probably right !!

So what's your thoughts on Sunday amateur teams travelling all round the country for their biggest trophy yet ours is regionalised ?

I don't want to upset you NB, but it's worth adding that the Scottish Sunday Amateur Cup (to which you presumably refer) is run in 4 regions prior to R3...

[Grim O'Grady]

As I recall, the last time Grim made a pitch for games to be moved to Ainslie Park "en masse" - the next day the artificial surface at said ground was passed unplayable due to it being frozen in the corner under the clubhouse ...

If games are postponed several weeks running they almost invariably end-up being reversed or both clubs agreeing on a neutral venue anyway, which is fair enough. In recent years I can recall Selkirk reversing a tie to Spartans, a Vale-Selkirk tie being sent to Poltonhall and a Leith-Ormiston being sent tie to Ainslie Park. But only 5 games were off last week and only 2 games were off yesterday, so it would clearly have been a crazy idea to cram all 16 ties onto the handful of artificial pitches on the first go in the middle of November.

That would have made a tonne of money for Spartans, GFR etc. but have cost everyone else money (particularly the home clubs), owing to the need to pay rentals and travel, and miss-out the income which would be generated from a home tie with a higher crowd and the possibility for bar/pie/programmes sales and perhaps hospitality and matchday sponsorship. As stated above, it would be a solution to a prolonged backlog, though. And it generally happens de facto with individual ties if they've dragged-on beyond the rest.

I agree with Cicero about the scheduling point. As I said last week, IMO the rigid "try again every week" thing seems unsuited to the new age of pyramids and LL, floodlights, coach travel, match sponsorship and hospitality, etc. It really could be more flexible.

NB has inadvertently answered his own by saying the SCC is the biggest tournament "apart from"? That's the point, surely, apart from. Many of the clubs are in the Scottish Cup and his example of a local Rosewell team is in the Scottish Sunday Amateur Cup... Without a financial subsidy it seems that not enough clubs want another fully long-distance cup in the shape of the SCC. But it would only take 2 (1?) clubs to propose restoring a total All-In format. Personally, I'd go All-In from Last 16.

HJ, I don't recall us ever canceling a match because of a frozen pitch since we became artificial, iirc a game was cancelled due to H+S reasons that the ground around & leading to the stadium was frozen & was a danger for spectators so was cancelled on safety grounds.

I'm sure that gate receipts would be shared between the clubs participating but of course the pitch hire would have to be paid for. Programme money collected would depend on who produced it surely, but maybe both teams or if it was a weekender all teams involved could join in & make a bumper collectors programme?

Can't see why hospitality packages can't be sorted either?

Also on a sponsorship level, such as pitch side hoarding advertising then if it was agreed between Spartans & the rest of the clubs involved then the sponsor would get 4 times the level of advertising inc the programme if it was a collectors bumper edition?

Transport costs would be minimal if it was regionalized but yes there would be a cost to the home side.

I don't know how much it has cost all the clubs not to have a game for 2 or 3 weeks not just financially but in terms of match fitness as well.

Anyway it's just pie in the sky because it's not going to happen, I was only trying to offer a solution to the inevitable backlog of games caused by weather postponements. I'm sure there must be other alternatives to stop this fixture build up?

Grimbo

[surely not!]

HJ, I don't recall us ever canceling a match because of a frozen pitch since we became artificial, iirc a game was cancelled due to H+S reasons that the ground around & leading to the stadium was frozen & was a danger for spectators so was cancelled on safety grounds.

I'm sure that gate receipts would be shared between the clubs participating but of course the pitch hire would have to be paid for. Programme money collected would depend on who produced it surely, but maybe both teams or if it was a weekender all teams involved could join in & make a bumper collectors programme?

Can't see why hospitality packages can't be sorted either?

Also on a sponsorship level, such as pitch side hoarding advertising then if it was agreed between Spartans & the rest of the clubs involved then the sponsor would get 4 times the level of advertising inc the programme if it was a collectors bumper edition?

Transport costs would be minimal if it was regionalized but yes there would be a cost to the home side.

I don't know how much it has cost all the clubs not to have a game for 2 or 3 weeks not just financially but in terms of match fitness as well.

Anyway it's just pie in the sky because it's not going to happen, I was only trying to offer a solution to the inevitable backlog of games caused by weather postponements. I'm sure there must be other alternatives to stop this fixture build up?

Grimbo

Summer fitba?

There are obviously fine details that would have to be ironed out, but I do believe that the pros outweigh the cons on this one, IF games are continually postponed rather than a specific set aside day of games. Can't see clubs willingly give up so many income streams just in case they have games postponed, but as HJ says they seem to be willing to make a 'switch' to get a game on if postponed several times.

I actually think clubs may be open to some sort of day of football as you describe Grim, if the matches weren't held at spartans or indeed gala (based around those two clubs getting the financial benefits- oh and probably cos it's spartans! ) and were perhaps held at a 'neutral' venue.