renton Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Mmm... I think you vastly underestimate the anti-English sentiment in Scotland, which find a home in the SNP. Mmm....I think you vastly overestimate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Mmm....I think you vastly overestimate it. We've seen plenty of it on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 We've seen plenty of it on this forum. You'd have to dig out examples for me, as I can't recall it off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Also, going back to the figures above - "In 2011/12 there were 5,389 racist incidents reported to the police." That year saw a record number (1,295) where the victim was white and British. This included attacks on Scots by ethnic minorities, but the vast majority of the perpetrators were white. This was 57% more than in 2004/05. It's not getting better - it's getting worse. The referendum certainly didn't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 You'd have to dig out examples for me, as I can't recall it off the top of my head. Well, you only need to look at the "Xmas TV" thread, to see Colkitto's xenophobic behaviour. Then there were the posters after the referendum seeking to separate out "Scots" and "non-Scots" in the voting population. Blaiming English immigrants for voting "the wrong way". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 So, as I've proven above, Scots commit racist crimes in the almost identical percentages as those in the rest of the UK. If you are suggesting (please clarify) that Scots are less racist than the rUK then what? Are we just more likely to act out on it? Given that the number of actual racists far exceeds those who go as far to commit (or at least be caught commiting) racist crimes, who do the anti-English vermin who form such a large percentage of the racist attackers in Scotland vote for do you think? If you have a virulent hatred for England and the English, who would you vote for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well, you only need to look at the "Xmas TV" thread, to see Colkitto's xenophobic behaviour. Then there were the posters after the referendum seeking to separate out "Scots" and "non-Scots" in the voting population. Blaiming English immigrants for voting "the wrong way". Colkitto is one poster, I don't recall seeing the second bit of your post, and without context that could mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 So, as I've proven above, Scots commit racist crimes in the almost identical percentages as those in the rest of the UK. If you are suggesting (please clarify) that Scots are less racist than the rUK then what? Are we just more likely to act out on it? Given that the number of actual racists far exceeds those who go as far to commit (or at least be caught commiting) racist crimes, who do the anti-English vermin who form such a large percentage of the racist attackers in Scotland vote for do you think? If you have a virulent hatred for England and the English, who would you vote for? Where's the statistic that anti english crimes make up the majority of racist crime in Scotland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Where's the statistic that anti english crimes make up the majority of racist crime in Scotland? I didn't say that anti-English crime made up the majority of racist crime in Scotland. It isn't categorised to that level. It will make up the majority of the crime against the 1,295 victims who are white and British, which is a sizeable chunk of the overall figures of racism. I ask again, who do you suspect these people vote for? We have a disgraceful number of anti-English racists in Scotland - the SNP are their home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I didn't say that anti-English crime made up the majority of racist crime in Scotland. It isn't categorised to that level. It will make up the majority of the crime against the 1,295 victims who are white and British, which is a sizeable chunk of the overall figures of racism. I ask again, who do you suspect these people vote for? We have a disgraceful number of anti-English racists in Scotland - the SNP are their home. It's 25% and obviously far, far too high, both in of itself and of a total of racist attacks that is far, far too high. Beyond that you are speculating, you don't know that they actually do vote, you don't know that their world view is dominated by their anti English racism - it may only be one element of their spectrum of hatred, they might not want independence even if they do hate them, you don't know if they are members of the SNP - you certainly can't be suggesting that they in any way influence the values or policies of the party. To therefore ascribe the SNP as their home is to project values onto the SNP that certainly aren't there. You might want the SNP to be vile racists, it may be how you fit them into your headspace where all nationalism is evil (god knows how you stomach voting for the Tories or Labour in that case) but it simply isn't there on the evidence provided, certainly not in my epxerience of the SNP, either on a policy level or of the many members I've met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 To therefore ascribe the SNP as their home is to project values onto the SNP that certainly aren't there. No it isn't. It's their natural home - quite clearly. Your dancing on a pin to pretend this isn't the case is laughable. If you are racist towards English immigrants, and you "hate" the English as a cultural group, who exactly would you vote for? Liberal Democrats? Labour? The SNP is the party of John Mason. And Brian Souter. We know what the SNP is. It's a wide range of policy views and a wide range of people, from decent to vile bigot. We already know in Scotland that UKIP have a following - that's why they have an MEP. The SNP also have a following, ranging from the left to the right of the political spectrum. This include vile homophobic scumbags, and racists. this doesn't mean the SNP are "a racist party" - it's a party racists vote for. Two very very different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodjesSixteenIncher Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 When people compare UKIP and SNP with arguments such as "they're both anti-establishment", "they both want constitutional change" etc, they're missing the point (deliberately I assume) completely. There's nothing wrong with having no faith in the British establishment and being sick of two barely distinguishable parties duopolising power. The difference is Scotland's most popular alternative is a pro-immigration, pro-Europe progressive party and England's is a bunch of Thatcherite racists. That's not to say this quite obvious difference speaks for everyone in England. I actually feel pretty sorry for left of centre folk down there, the already shite state of affairs in terms of their political options is getting even worse now because they live in a right wing country. I bet deep down they wish the SNP would change the name and start running in their constituencies. We have it lucky in some ways. We of course have the casual racism prevalent even on here, and more expressly in the older age groups. The "Paki" shop... the "Chinkys". Chat that is always shouted down by the majority. I haven't seen much protest from you about your boss's not exactly casusal racist rantings on here this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 . I actually feel pretty sorry for left of centre folk down there, In what way would the SNP standing help "left of centre" voters in England? You aren't seriously claiming the SNP (tax cuts for rich folks) is a left of centre party??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 No it isn't. It's their natural home - quite clearly. Your dancing on a pin to pretend this isn't the case is laughable. If you are racist towards English immigrants, and you "hate" the English as a cultural group, who exactly would you vote for? Liberal Democrats? Labour? The SNP is the party of John Mason. And Brian Souter. We know what the SNP is. It's a wide range of policy views and a wide range of people, from decent to vile bigot. We already know in Scotland that UKIP have a following - that's why they have an MEP. The SNP also have a following, ranging from the left to the right of the political spectrum. This include vile homophobic scumbags, and racists. this doesn't mean the SNP are "a racist party" - it's a party racists vote for. Two very very different things. How is it their natural home? Unless the SNP evince some kind of racist dog whistle language regarding the English, you might have a point - but they don't. And you've still not been able to link independence to a visceral hatred of the English, it's simply not that linear a relationship. It may be quite easy to find someone with a visceral, xenophobic hatred of the English who yet recognises the necessity of the Union for other reasons, further our notional racist might not even fucking vote. Which renders your final sentence as a generalism that could apply to every party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Wonder how many people will admit to being in a crowd of Scottish football fans singing "If you hate the fucking English clap your hands"? I guess that's just friendly banter. Slight step up on "I'd rather wear a turban than a rose" I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Wonder how many people will admit to being in a crowd of Scottish football fans singing "If you hate the fucking English clap your hands"? I guess that's just friendly banter. Slight step up on "I'd rather wear a turban than a rose" I suppose. So where's the evidence linking folk who sing that in Scotland games to a desire for independence and hence to the SNP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 How is it their natural home? Sorry - what? Are you seriously asking why the party which is seeking to secede from the United Kingdo, is the natural home of Scottish anti-English racists? Seriously?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 So where's the evidence linking folk who sing that in Scotland games to a desire for independence and hence to the SNP? Aye, no. You are right.. probably UKIP voters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodjesSixteenIncher Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 In what way would the SNP standing help "left of centre" voters in England? You aren't seriously claiming the SNP (tax cuts for rich folks) is a left of centre party??? Yep. If you want to spend the rest of your day discussing this in detail, please consult any of the many, many identical threads in which I've totally wasted my time squabbling with you about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Sorry - what? Are you seriously asking why the party which is seeking to secede from the United Kingdo, is the natural home of Scottish anti-English racists? Seriously?? Yeah, seriously becuase you have failed, time and time again to provide evidence of a substantial link between anti english racism and a desire for self government. It is quite possible to hold terrible social views, racist, xenophobic and mysoginistic views and then vote for a government of open border liberals led by a woman becuase they promise you a massive income tax cut. I've known people who have held fairly backwards views on race and other cultures - including the English - who 'fucking hate that c**t Salmond' and happily marked an X next to No in the referendum. You have provided no causal link, merely your own ideas of where you think these aresholes fit in, and conveniently it's to a cause you find disreputable. Fact is as many of them could conceivably be long time Unionists from a variety of backgrounds. ... and this goes back to why the SNP and UKIP are not the same - UKIP make a virtue out of their dogwhistle politics - their 'common sense views' and deliberate targetting of the 'other'. The SNP asked for and received a franchise that allowed anyone resident in Scotland to vote, not just the natural born Scots. They said over, and over, that anyone who contributes to Scotland should be allowed a say in how it is governed, that the community of Scotland goes beyond merely those born here, now, does that sound like the kind of chat that naturally attracts racists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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