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15 minutes ago, Fifespud said:


I’m certainly not at that stage Ludo but there’s an element of revisionism taking place here. We’ve gone from we have a half decent squad hopelessly mismanaged by a clown shoe manager that someone half reasonable could get a tune out of to all the players are shite Bowyer isn’t to blame. We’ve conceded 3 goals against Ayr and both Thistles. That’s a bit concerning and there have been some poor decisions on the park but also in the dugout.
The honeymoon is over, no point crying over no signings, get the best out of what you’ve got please Gaz.

I think it's fairly evident that the players have a mental fragility from being pumped on the regular. There's a reason a lot of squads don't bounce back up from this league and that's usually because there's not been a turnover and the team has got a losers mentality.

There is a point about crying over a lack of signings because it's going to cost us.

ETA: I also have to disagree with you Spud, I feel you had been sharpening the knives even at the point he was announced!

Edited by Ludo*1
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On 16/09/2022 at 19:22, D TOTAL said:

With zach Robinson being a somewhat decent loan signing, who was the last loan player we had where we actually thought I wish we could keep him permanently?

I think @Ludo*1 mentioned Giorgios Efrem and Andy Shinnie - they were fantastic, especially Efrem who had mental pace and you always felt he could make something happen. The one that sticks out for me was Derek Ferguson who came for a month in (i think) 89-90. He only played 3 or 4 games but he absolutely strolled them, levels above the midfielders we had at the time.

Arguably that kickstarted a bit of a recovery which almost saw us stay up after a genuinely horrific 2/3rds of a season. However we lost a crucial home game to St Mirren, from 1-0 up, D*dds missed a penalty and we lost 2-1. 

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12 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

There is a point about crying over a lack of signings because it's going to cost us.

I get your point with this, although knee jerk signings just for the sake of it to replace mediocre with mediocre needs to stop. It's unsustainable and gets us no further forward. If we are bringing players in, they must be the right ones.

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1 minute ago, johnnydun said:

I get your point with this, although knee jerk signings just for the sake of it to replace mediocre with mediocre needs to stop. It's unsustainable and gets us no further forward. If we are bringing players in, they must be the right ones.

Yeah, don't disagree with that, more the fact that Bowyer stated he expected 3-4 in during the week before the deadline and the club delivered 0.

These days, a manager just hands a list of players they want and the decision makers (be that Nelms or Strachan for us) work their way through it if they can't get the top player. To end up bringing in 0 is failing the manager. And if Bowyer wanted to bring another 3-4 in, that's him clearly saying the squad isn't good enough at present IMO.

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21 minutes ago, Peadar BigDinnerO'Driscoll said:

Legz

French Ashcroft McGhee Kerr

Grayson

McMullan Mulligan Marshall

McGowan

Robinson

Bit of a punt on Marshall but with Kerr behind hIim could be an option as he is decent going forward. Only other option is McGinn with McCowan out.

That's the defence that should be starting every game, without a shadow of a doubt.

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I think it's fairly evident that the players have a mental fragility from being pumped on the regular. There's a reason a lot of squads don't bounce back up from this league and that's usually because there's not been a turnover and the team has got a losers mentality.
There is a point about crying over a lack of signings because it's going to cost us.
ETA: I also have to disagree with you Spud, I feel you had been sharpening the knives even at the point he was announced!

I strongly voiced my opposition to appointing someone with a track record of abject mediocrity (no point in going over that ground as I highlight the negatives - you the positives and I’ll admit there have been some) but since then I’ve been very positive and supportive.
The managers job is to build the players confidence up, they can’t be total losers as about 75% of them got us promoted not much more than a year ago!
We’ve had 3 disappointing results against teams in our league and it’s got to stop otherwise it’s going to be another horrendous season and I’m not sure how many more we can take, the crowd is already dropping. Livi had less than 3000 at their game on Saturday, they don’t have a sugar daddy as far as I’m aware and they’re in the top 6. We must demand better.
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39 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

I get your point with this, although knee jerk signings just for the sake of it to replace mediocre with mediocre needs to stop. It's unsustainable and gets us no further forward. If we are bringing players in, they must be the right ones.

Agreed and stop adding In bonuses of contract extensions if we get promoted. Fkd us over time and again under the Americans ownership. 

Edited by Yenitit
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4 minutes ago, Fifespud said:


I strongly voiced my opposition to appointing someone with a track record of abject mediocrity (no point in going over that ground as I highlight the negatives - you the positives and I’ll admit there have been some) but since then I’ve been very positive and supportive.
The managers job is to build the players confidence up, they can’t be total losers as about 75% of them got us promoted not much more than a year ago!
We’ve had 3 disappointing results against teams in our league and it’s got to stop otherwise it’s going to be another horrendous season and I’m not sure how many more we can take, the crowd is already dropping. Livi had less than 3000 at their game on Saturday, they don’t have a sugar daddy as far as I’m aware and they’re in the top 6. We must demand better.

Were you impressed with the way we performed in the league last time round? Promotion or not, it was abject 90% of the time!

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1 hour ago, Ludo*1 said:

Yeah, don't disagree with that, more the fact that Bowyer stated he expected 3-4 in during the week before the deadline and the club delivered 0.

These days, a manager just hands a list of players they want and the decision makers (be that Nelms or Strachan for us) work their way through it if they can't get the top player. To end up bringing in 0 is failing the manager. And if Bowyer wanted to bring another 3-4 in, that's him clearly saying the squad isn't good enough at present IMO.

Don’t  get me wrong I’m as disappointed as everyone else that we didn’t strengthen the team further but what if the players Bowyer wanted in would have cost too much?  If that is the case I’m glad the board didn’t dish out expensive 2-3  year deals. 

The wages Nelms allegedly dished out under Hartley in particular were way more than the players of their standing could have realistically got elsewhere in this country.  

Danny Williams, Tom Hately, James Vincent and Nick Ross spring to mind. I haven’t bothered looking up where these players ended up after us but I’d be amazed if they remained in this country on anything like the wages they were said to be getting at Dens. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

Don’t  get me wrong I’m as disappointed as everyone else that we didn’t strengthen the team further but what if the players Bowyer wanted in would have cost too much?  If that is the case I’m glad the board didn’t dish out expensive 2-3  year deals. 

The wages Nelms allegedly dished out under Hartley in particular were way more than the players of their standing could have realistically got elsewhere in this country.  

Danny Williams, Tom Hately, James Vincent and Nick Ross spring to mind. I haven’t bothered looking up where these players ended up after us but I’d be amazed if they remained in this country on anything like the wages they were said to be getting at Dens. 

 

 

I mean, he's entitled to a bit of backing and this is the sort of stuff, that if led by a competent board would have asked before his appointment.

So far he's been backed with 3 loan deals, 2 of which have come from their respective clubs youth development squads and 1 actual signing.

Comparing Nelms actions with a manager that made the aforementioned signings some of which are close to a decade ago shouldn't be coming into the equation.

I think it's fairly clear that Bowyer hasn't been backed appropriately hence how he's tried his best to get the likes of Byrne off the books.

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1 hour ago, Fifespud said:


I strongly voiced my opposition to appointing someone with a track record of abject mediocrity (no point in going over that ground as I highlight the negatives - you the positives and I’ll admit there have been some) but since then I’ve been very positive and supportive.
The managers job is to build the players confidence up, they can’t be total losers as about 75% of them got us promoted not much more than a year ago!
We’ve had 3 disappointing results against teams in our league and it’s got to stop otherwise it’s going to be another horrendous season and I’m not sure how many more we can take, the crowd is already dropping. Livi had less than 3000 at their game on Saturday, they don’t have a sugar daddy as far as I’m aware and they’re in the top 6. We must demand better.

Who do you suppose should have got the job then? And don't say Jack Ross

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1 hour ago, Ludo*1 said:

I mean, he's entitled to a bit of backing and this is the sort of stuff, that if led by a competent board would have asked before his appointment.

So far he's been backed with 3 loan deals, 2 of which have come from their respective clubs youth development squads and 1 actual signing.

Comparing Nelms actions with a manager that made the aforementioned signings some of which are close to a decade ago shouldn't be coming into the equation.

I think it's fairly clear that Bowyer hasn't been backed appropriately hence how he's tried his best to get the likes of Byrne off the books.

I would respectfully suggest Ludo it comes into the equation in so much as Nelms may feel he’s blindly backed managers in the past and is no longer willing to do so.  Good housekeeping may be more if a priority now.  Bad in one sense but overall probably understandable.

I do totally agree with you that discussions about future budgets should, and hopefully were, discussed prior to Bowyers appointment.  Has the board or Bowyer gone off script if such discussions did take place?  That would be a worry if that were the case. 

Anyway, I’ve seen every home game this season and I have to say I’m not actually that worried at this stage.  Other teams have more established managers and I really don’t think we are that far behind all things considered.

I think most of us are in agreement who the weakest links are.  If Bowyer can see this and sort them out we have every reason to be optimistic. 

 

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2 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

Were you impressed with the way we performed in the league last time round? Promotion or not, it was abject 90% of the time!

Looking back to that season, even in March and April just before our final unbeaten stretch which got us up, there was plenty of "McPake out" shouts flying about, especially from myself. I actually find it somewhat amusing to read, mostly because we somehow ended up promoted at the end of it all.

This is just the nature of the Championship imo, there is no real foothold to steady any club as they all are shite in one way or another. Fully prepared for a full season of this, and we'll still have a half-decent shot at promotion despite this somehow. I'm not that worried yet anyway, but that partly is connected to my hope belief that as the season drags on our squad will manage the inevitable fatigue that a full season brings better than others.

Hopefully like that season though, we can do something of value in January. Maybe sign Jason Cumm- oh wait no, that ship hasn't half sailed off.

Edited by RossBFaeDundee
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Who do you suppose should have got the job then? And don't say Jack Ross

That’s not really my job but as I said at the time maybe someone who had just had 2 promotions in 3 seasons well down the pyramid, someone from Scandinavia, maybe someone from Australia because their players are flooding our premiership leading me to think that’s where the gems in the rough are.
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A referee that can do his job, and he was well positioned for the should have been a penalty and red card decision, and we would have won on Saturday.

Legzdins instead of Sharp and the first 2 goals wouldn't have happened. 

That said I'm far from pleased about Saturday and like most on here I think the line-up was a shocker. However, I'm not in agreement about some of the performances. I though Marshall was fine (that 2nd goal was down to Sharp, not even sure their player would have kept it in play), Sweeney was ok, scored and was unlucky with that 2nd booking. 

French played ok but was frequently out of position, I don't think it looks like his natural position. On top of that, the reward for Cammy, who has been playing well as RB, covering LB is to be dropped. That looks like a manager favouring players he has signed, never a good thing for squad morale. Of the 4 he has signed, who all started, only Robinson has impressed so far, though Grayson wasn't bad on Saturday. That said I don't know why Robinson was hooked as at least he can hold the ball up, Rudden was totally out of it given the gameplan of lumping it forward.

Why go for a lump it forward when playing on the ground has suited us much better? Why drop, or not even bring on Cameron, the brightest spark over the last couple of games. He can make a bigger impact and play better through balls than McGinn so why not play him?

I believe this squad can win this league if managed properly, Saturday was worrying

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Just catching up from the weekend...

Referee was terrible but fucking hell we went 1-0 up and time after time managed to fucking shoot ourselves in the foot. I still believe Bowyer will get it right but ffs stop playing Sweeney. Absolute liability, slow as a week in jail and...somehow...our captain. 

Subbing Robinson off was a weird one. Mcgowan showed he should be starting every game which is depressing given how old he is. 

Shit result - only 4 points behind, not the end of the world but we need to wake up. 

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