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45 minutes ago, craigkillie said:


Cummings isn't good enough for this level and his goalscoring record bears that out. It was no coincidence they got much better at the end of last season when they benched him for Mullen.

That's nonsense. In 4 starts (3 of which were up front) he has 3 goals for us this season.

Also, why make things up? The only fixtures he was dropped for last season was the play-offs. He started in 13 of our last 14 games of the season which co-incided with our best run of form and scored 8 goals in that run.

Edited by Ludo*1
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1 hour ago, Ludo*1 said:

That's nonsense. In 4 starts (3 of which were up front) he has 3 goals for us this season.

Also, why make things up? The only fixtures he was dropped for last season was the play-offs. He started in 13 of our last 14 games of the season which co-incided with our best run of form and scored 8 goals in that run.

5 goals in 42 Premiership appearances for Cummings now, despite having played for two of the biggest clubs in the country. One of these in between players who is too good for the Championship but not good enough for the Premiership.

That'll be why McPake trusted him against average Championship opposition in the league but then dropped him as soon as they were playing better teams in the playoffs as you said.

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24 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

5 goals in 42 Premiership appearances for Cummings now, despite having played for two of the biggest clubs in the country. One of these in between players who is too good for the Championship but not good enough for the Premiership.

That'll be why McPake trusted him against average Championship opposition in the league but then dropped him as soon as they were playing better teams in the playoffs as you said.

You were one of the poorer teams we faced last season and the results proved that. Nice of you to try and twist your rubbish argument to suit your point of view though after spouting absolute nonsense about his starts.

3 goals in 4 starts for Dundee. His stint at Rangers was 2 starts, 1 goal. His stint at Hibs was 9 starts as well in the 13/14 season when he was 17-18. (All stats from Transfermarkt so might be slightly out in terms of appearances) Hardly a fair time span to judge him on. You're using 15 minutes here and there to slate his goal scoring record when  most of those appearances came before his 19th birthday. And in regards to us, he's been papped out on the wing for 15 minute spells really. When played up top, in his natural position, he's delivered.

Finally, using McPake's 'trust' definitely isn't an indicator of any quality.

Edited by Ludo*1
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2 hours ago, craigkillie said:


Cummings isn't good enough for this level and his goalscoring record bears that out. It was no coincidence they got much better at the end of last season when they benched him for Mullen.

Good effort. No way am I biting.

Mullen ffs 

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People say that McPake is a terrible manager. I think that's slightly misleading (although ultimately true). I think his man-management skills are up there with the best we've seen at Dens. He consistently still has the squad playing for him through tough spells and manages to evade the bullet and go on a run when it's least expected. He certainly has to be given credit for his dealing with the likes of Kane Hemmings depression and another couple of notable incidents and stuff like that.

The real issue is his coaching. His tactics are regularly found wanting, but his teams are often found exposed for not doing the absolute basics of defending. I genuinely believe that whilst our back line is very, very poor for this level that if they had better organisation at the back, our goals against column wouldn't look near as bad. 

Livingston's back line:

Devlin - Fitzwater - Obileye - Parkes - Kelly

 Man for man I wouldn't say that back-line is that much better than ours yet it has conceded 11 fewer goals. That all comes down to what is done on the training pitch. Martindale, for all his faults, has them well drilled, playing for one another and it's not like they've lost potency in attack as they've only scored 1 fewer than us having played a game less. Whereas our defence often looks like they've just met for the first time and have no idea what the other is about to do.

It's on the training pitch where McPake is costing himself above and beyond his signings or general management.

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Thinking back on yesterday’s game how did we manage to come away with only a 2 goal defeat and only conceding 4 🤷🏼‍♂️ that was horrific yesterday. Even allowing for Celtic’s offside goal it wouldn’t have made 1 bit of difference. We had no intention on changing our shape when we were hemmed in, playing ridiculously deep against a good attacking side, with very little possession and getting cut open time and again until the game was as good as over at 2 nil down.

What was the manager’s thinking with that game plan? Sit off them for 75 minutes and hope we can knick a point 🤷🏼‍♂️ Then when we did change shape there was just total confusion by the players in not knowing where they were now being asked to play. We’re surely working on 2 or 3 formations during the week so the players know exactly what’s asked of them. If the back 5 isn’t working (again) change to a 4-5-1 , if someone gets sent off we change to a 4-4-1 for example. I can’t understand the fullbacks defending. Surely the 1st thing you do when the ball is played out wide is for the fullbacks to sprint out to put the wingers 1st touch under pressure. We stand a good 5 yards off them and just attempt to get our bodies in the road when the cross is being swung in. I can understand the midfield standing off because Charlie and Gowser don’t have the legs to be in people’s faces but the fullbacks definitely do.  
 

The organisation was that bad at 1 point in the 1st half we had players asking the manager who was taking the corners 🤦🏻‍♂️

The club has to be doing better than this. We lie down to Celtic every time we play them. Get in there faces, put some tackles in, push up the park and at least try and get their defence turning. I sat through to the bitter end watching 6 at Tannadice, 7 at McDairmid and 6’s numerous times at Parkhead and Ibrox but I seriously contemplated leaving as soon as the 1st goal went in yesterday because we were so far off the pace of the game, sitting so deep, the team line up was a farce and it was going to be a walk in the park for Celtic. 
 

Getting c**t seek of it tbh. 

Edited by Yenitit
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30 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:
2 hours ago, Mr. Alli said:
emoji38.png
Which "better teams" in the playoffs? 

Indeed. Killie were an absolute fucking rabble, Raith Rovers would have rinsed them as well.

Lets hope they stay down for a bit longer. 

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51 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:
2 hours ago, Mr. Alli said:
emoji38.png
Which "better teams" in the playoffs? 

Indeed. Killie were an absolute fucking rabble, Raith Rovers would have rinsed them as well.

This however deluded quite a few dundee fans in thinking how we would do this season. ( check prediction thread for this and if you really are bored here also). Killie were shocking and deservedly relegated.

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7 hours ago, craigkillie said:

5 goals in 42 Premiership appearances for Cummings now, despite having played for two of the biggest clubs in the country. One of these in between players who is too good for the Championship but not good enough for the Premiership.

That'll be why McPake trusted him against average Championship opposition in the league but then dropped him as soon as they were playing better teams in the playoffs as you said.

What is SPL quality though? Be interesting to see how many of the current strikers in the league aren’t good enough for top flight based on your measure yet still represent teams that make up the league. 

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6 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

People say that McPake is a terrible manager. I think that's slightly misleading (although ultimately true). I think his man-management skills are up there with the best we've seen at Dens. He consistently still has the squad playing for him through tough spells and manages to evade the bullet and go on a run when it's least expected. He certainly has to be given credit for his dealing with the likes of Kane Hemmings depression and another couple of notable incidents and stuff like that.

The real issue is his coaching. His tactics are regularly found wanting, but his teams are often found exposed for not doing the absolute basics of defending. I genuinely believe that whilst our back line is very, very poor for this level that if they had better organisation at the back, our goals against column wouldn't look near as bad. 

Livingston's back line:

Devlin - Fitzwater - Obileye - Parkes - Kelly

 Man for man I wouldn't say that back-line is that much better than ours yet it has conceded 11 fewer goals. That all comes down to what is done on the training pitch. Martindale, for all his faults, has them well drilled, playing for one another and it's not like they've lost potency in attack as they've only scored 1 fewer than us having played a game less. Whereas our defence often looks like they've just met for the first time and have no idea what the other is about to do.

It's on the training pitch where McPake is costing himself above and beyond his signings or general management.

To be fair that isn't our first choice defence, nor do we tend to play 5 at the back outside games against the Old Firm.

You'd probably need to factor goalkeepers into it as well but I don't imagine there's a huge gap between Legzdins and Stryjek.

Devlin - Fitzwater - Obileye - Longridge would be our regular back 4. Our defence has started to gel very well lately and Fitzwater has for whatever reason suddenly developed into Jon Guthrie the Second. Obileye is settled in at CB and is generally just solid. Devlin and Longridge are very solid defensively with pace but if I'm remembering rightly Dundee have decent quality at LB/RB as well. Martindale just tells both CBs to keep it simple and get rid of it most of the time.

A large part of why we've been doing shite so far is we had 12-14 players out for the first 6/7 games. Even now we're missing 3 LBs and Sibbald amongst a few more.

I'd say in terms of squad building the quality spread is pretty similar between Livi and Dundee, both squads have great quality in the middle of the park. Defence is shaky at times but needs to gel and up front is a bit of a mix of random quality and shite. Only difference I'd imagine is that Dundee play with two up front (?) and we play 1 with wingers either side. I would imagine guys like Odin Bailley and Alan Forrest would probably start for Dundee if they played that system but obviously McPake hasn't signed players for that role anyway so it's not much of a point to make. 

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5 hours ago, Yenitit said:

What was the manager’s thinking with that game plan? Sit off them for 75 minutes and hope we can knick a point 🤷🏼‍♂️ Then when we did change shape there was just total confusion by the players in not knowing where they were now being asked to play. We’re surely working on 2 or 3 formations during the week so the players know exactly what’s asked of them. If the back 5 isn’t working (again) change to a 4-5-1 , if someone gets sent off we change to a 4-4-1 for example. I can’t understand the fullbacks defending. Surely the 1st thing you do when the ball is played out wide is for the fullbacks to sprint out to put the wingers 1st touch under pressure. We stand a good 5 yards off them and just attempt to get our bodies in the road when the cross is being swung in. I can understand the midfield standing off because Charlie and Gowser don’t have the legs to be in people’s faces but the fullbacks definitely do.  
 

The organisation was that bad at 1 point in the 1st half we had players asking the manager who was taking the corners 🤦🏻‍♂️

The club has to be doing better than this. We lie down to Celtic every time we play them. Get in there faces, put some tackles in, push up the park and at least try and get their defence turning. I sat through to the bitter end watching 6 at Tannadice, 7 at McDairmid and 6’s numerous times at Parkhead and Ibrox but I seriously contemplated leaving as soon as the 1st goal went in yesterday because we were so far off the pace of the game, sitting so deep, the team line up was a farce and it was going to be a walk in the park for Celtic. 
 

Getting c**t seek of it tbh. 

Good post. Should be in their faces, having a proper go...not standing off letting them have the ball. Scoring two goals showed how weak they were when attacked. Don't mind this attitude so much at Celtic Pk or Ibrox but never at Dens.

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1 hour ago, Ludo*1 said:

What chance have you got when even the local media are absolute shitebags with headlines like this?

 

That headline beggar's belief in its shitehousery. That's even worse than the usual 'bothsides' are just as bad as the other political journalism that we get here in that it's blaming fans at Dens Park. Who are the fans at Dens Park every week? Dees of course. Anyone (especially a neutral or non-football fan) glancing at that headline would associate the fans in question to meaning us!

What a bunch of nonsense.

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1 hour ago, Peadar BigDinnerO'Driscoll said:

Good post. Should be in their faces, having a proper go...not standing off letting them have the ball. Scoring two goals showed how weak they were when attacked. Don't mind this attitude so much at Celtic Pk or Ibrox but never at Dens.

I'm not sure pressing high, when you've got Adam in midfield, two shite full backs, and a lack of pace in defence, would be wise against Kyogo/Jota/Abada tbh. Celtic are a bit dodgy at the back but it's naive to just ignore how good they are on the ball.

I remember our fans screaming for us to "have a go" at them years ago, we went hell for leather from the start and went in at half time about 5 goals down.

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23 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I'm not sure pressing high, when you've got Adam in midfield, two shite full backs, and a lack of pace in defence, would be wise against Kyogo/Jota/Abada tbh. Celtic are a bit dodgy at the back but it's naive to just ignore how good they are on the ball.

I remember our fans screaming for us to "have a go" at them years ago, we went hell for leather from the start and went in at half time about 5 goals down.

Your right enough there tbh, if you have a go at them or the other cheek, they will just pick you off at will. But on the other hand sitting doesn't work either if your defence is as slow and shite as ours. Just because mcpake was a defender doesn't mean he will coach them any better because he wasn't that good imo

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1 minute ago, Wieghortsnut said:

Your right enough there tbh, if you have a go at them or the other cheek, they will just pick you off at will. But on the other hand sitting doesn't work either if your defence is as slow and shite as ours.

Aye its a hard one to judge. Presumably McPake weighed it up and decided a "timid" 2/3 goal loss was better than a potential 5/6 goal loss?

It's a bit negative but ultimately your goal difference could be a major part of your final position so it's sensible for a manager to try and protect it a bit.

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