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Mr Gandosaur

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Anyone but Killie in the playoffs please. 

Thank you. 

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To be fair, McInnes got St Johnstone to the top flight which they've never been out of since, did he not?

I think McInnes gets a hard time. Very good manager. Did he underperform with Aberdeen? At times, yeah. He had a golden opportunity to win a title for a non-OF team when Rangers were out of the league and Celtic had Deila, but even then, the odds are stacked massively, massively against them to the point that it's not even worth bringing up to hold against him.

Could he have won another couple of cups? Sure, he didn't disgrace Aberdeen except against Celtic in those sorts of tournaments though which again, isn't unexpected.

Did he deserve the £17k? Absolutely not. That was the point Aberdeen should have let him go instead of letting his Aberdeen career fizzle out.

As for Hartley, he should have been punted that same night McInnes' Aberdeen put 7 past us. He'd firmly ran out of ideas and it was one of the most humiliating results in my lifetime alongside the first 6-2 derby defeat, Gretna scudding us in a semi final and Airdrie putting 7 past us. That said, he also gave us some of the best attacking football I'd seen since the Bonetti's. He gave us the Greg Stewart and Kane Hemmings combo that can be talked of in the same light as Coyne and Wright for the younger generation. He gave us our first legitimate promotion since we'd been fucked since 2005. He gave us our first top 6 finish since 2000. 

He then lost Stewart and Hemmings and fell out with GGH (with the rumour being that GGH's position was pretty much untenable after what went on). If United lost Shankland, Siegrist and Nicky Clark next season, they'd be in a relegation scrap. If pretty much any top flight team lost their 3 talisman, they'd be fucked. 

I've said before, but Hartley is in his 11th season of management. 2 of those seasons have been complete disasters. 1 season would cause debate(his second season up with us finishing 8th). His other 7? 4 promotions, a top 6 finish, saving Falkirk when they looked doomed and currently has Cove a bawhair away from getting the title ahead of two full time teams in Partick Thistle and Falkirk and whilst ultimately missing out on that title in the final 2 games, it's still really impressive stuff and he still has a chance of making Cove a Championship club by the season's end.

Compare that record to pretty much every other manager in Scotland and find me someone who's record is better than that. I'd wager that there'd be no more than a handful of names.

Fair enough, I get the idea that we should never go back as it's such a Dundee thing to do, but he's quite clearly been a successful and quality manager over his tenure as a manager and still our best since at least Jocky's 2nd spell if not Archie Knox.

Edited by Ludo*1

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Fair fucks to anyone that reads that above post. Kinda got on my soap box a bit!

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I presume we are all hoping for a draw in both legs of the fife derby playoffs, with the second leg seeing four players from each side sent off and injuries aplenty??!!

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38 minutes ago, Spikethedee said:

I presume we are all hoping for a draw in both legs of the fife derby playoffs, with the second leg seeing four players from each side sent off and injuries aplenty??!!

It's not a true derby without a femur-splitting two-footer or five imo

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Fair fucks to anyone that reads that above post. Kinda got on my soap box a bit!

I read it Ludo. All fair points well made. Even if we went after him I very much doubt he’d come back anyway.

It’s all a waste of typing, we know who will be the manager next season already.

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1 hour ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

Did Hartley not make a right mess of Falkirk?

He certainly did.  Another way to look at Hartley is that he had significant financial backing at Dundee in relation to other Championship sides and he did well.  As we know, when he lost Hemmings and Stewart things went from bad to worse.  He simply lost his way with the players he brought to the club.  Huge number of players in with very few making the grade.  This despite significant financial backing from Nelms.

At Cove he once again finds himself with significant financial backing in relation to the clubs around him does he not?

Don’t get me wrong there was some great football to watch under Hartley but in reality he just didn’t have what it takes to compete in the top flight.  He fully admitted in an interview after the Hamilton match at Dens, yes HAMILTON, that he didn’t know what else to do.  IIRC Hamilton’s manager at the time hasn’t exactly done on to greater things, yet he still out thought Hartley.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

Did Hartley not make a right mess of Falkirk?

Yes, and I don't see why this should be frowned upon.

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Happy anniversary. Here's hoping we enjoy a similar kind of joy in three weeks' time.

May be an image of 18 people and people standing

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Is the six fingered derby on normal tv Tuesday?

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1 hour ago, RossBFaeDundee said:

Happy anniversary. Here's hoping we enjoy a similar kind of joy in three weeks' time.

May be an image of 18 people and people standing

Not many in that photo I wouldn't shag tbf.

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3 hours ago, Shadow Play said:

Another way to look at Hartley is that he had significant financial backing at Dundee in relation to other Championship sides and he did well. 

He only had Dundee in the Championship for about a month. 

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6 hours ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

Did Hartley not make a right mess of Falkirk?

Yep. Really bizarre what went on there. At Dundee, his biggest thing going for him was his work ethic. He'd be at pretty much every football game possible scouting for players or scouting the opposition. He wouldn't leave Dens until late at night and be the first one in, in the morning. Then he joins Falkirk and brings in some good quality players to dig them out of a relegation battle such as Andrew Nelson, Alex Jakubiak and Sean Welsh.

Over the pre-season, Falkirk scraps their youth system and Hartley has some English scout take over total control of the signing policy and the squad is filled with players like the Chelsea U23 captain etc and they're just utter shite and Hartley had never watched them play. Some conspiracy theories that it was a boardroom decision to have someone else in charge of the signings, but either way, really bizarre what went on that summer as it flew in the face of what Hartley's supposed strength in management is which is his work ethic.

5 hours ago, Shadow Play said:

He certainly did.  Another way to look at Hartley is that he had significant financial backing at Dundee in relation to other Championship sides and he did well.  As we know, when he lost Hemmings and Stewart things went from bad to worse.  He simply lost his way with the players he brought to the club.  Huge number of players in with very few making the grade.  This despite significant financial backing from Nelms.

At Cove he once again finds himself with significant financial backing in relation to the clubs around him does he not?

Don’t get me wrong there was some great football to watch under Hartley but in reality he just didn’t have what it takes to compete in the top flight.  He fully admitted in an interview after the Hamilton match at Dens, yes HAMILTON, that he didn’t know what else to do.  IIRC Hamilton’s manager at the time hasn’t exactly done on to greater things, yet he still out thought Hartley.

 

 

 

He was manager from February of 2014 and signed zero players. He didn't rate the squad, even said that we'd finish 3rd based on the squad's ability in a neutral interview whilst still manager of Alloa about a month before when he was asked to predict the finish to the season. John Brown had just quit as we slipped to 2nd in the league (on GD) with him publicly stating that he didn't believe he'd be able to get us up. Hartley came in, didn't sign a single player and won us the league. Budget backing had nothing to do with that. If anything, Hartley had to clear the decks as we had some amount of complete jobbers like Stephen Hughes, Adam Cummins, Carlo Monti, Sean Bonnet Johnson & Steven Doris on the books when he joined.

You say it went from 'bad' to 'worse' when we lost Hemmings & Stewart. Was that period bad? Finishing 8th in the top flight? Yeah, with those 2 we perhaps underperformed, but I'd bite your hand off for that level of underperformance watching the likes of those light up Dens as we finish 8th in the top flight. I don't think any of our managers since Jocky the 2nd time round has done something of that ilk and even then, Jocky did it in a much less entertaining way.

I agree, he did lose his way in his final season, but taking 41 goals out of a side(GGH, Stewart & Hemmings) that scored 53 goals in the league season 2 weeks before the next season starts and tell me a manager that wouldn't have lost his way. Tell me any team in Scotland, and I'd include either side of the OF, where you can take 3 talents that are that important to the side away from the club that close to the season start and have it not be a disaster. He signed Marcus Haber who ultimately went a long, long way to keeping us up in order for us to rebuild and whilst El Bak was ultimately a flop, he was the fan chosen replacement for Stewart after he'd ripped the league to shreds for Dunfermline the season before and was very much seen as a massive coup for us at the time. Who could have predicted he'd turn to shite? Not many at the time!

At Cove he does have decent financial backing, but not to the extent that's made out. His 'big money signings' include Fraser Fyvie who couldn't win a deal at us or a few other Championship clubs after being on trial and Rory McAllister who left Peterhead to join but is now 33. Cove are also still part-time competing against 2 massive clubs (and not to mention full time) at that sort of level in Falkirk and Partick Thistle.

Finally, the last point doesn't make sense. I fully agree he deserved to be punted when he did but to say because Hamilton beat us in a one off game means he's poorer than Martin Canning is just bizarre. He outperformed Alex Neil pretty convincingly in the games against each other, how does that fit in to that narrative?

 

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20 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

You say it went from 'bad' to 'worse' when we lost Hemmings & Stewart. Was that period bad? Finishing 8th in the top flight? Yeah, with those 2 we perhaps underperformed, but I'd bite your hand off for that level of underperformance watching the likes of those light up Dens as we finish 8th in the top flight. I don't think any of our managers since Jocky the 2nd time round has done something of that ilk and even then, Jocky did it in a much less entertaining way.

In all honesty, the manner of us finishing 8th was a concern to me.

We were a team formed around lightweight midfielders and our spine was weak as shit. We could look effortless in scoring 4 or 5 against a mid table side off their game one weak and then well beaten by Hamilton the next.

For me, the first aim of a Dundee side in the top flight is to say we'll be the meanest defensive side in the league. You can build a defensively sound side in the top flight relatively cheaply based around fairly average players and sustain yourself to beyond 40 points. Motherwell broke the mould a few years ago with scoring an unreal no of goals but a solid defence is the top formula for teams of our stature in the country to consistently stay safe and have those odd good years. If we go up really reliant on attacking players who are a bit special and focus on playing a bit of football, we're in very big trouble the first bad injury or sign that they are off.

That hammering by Rangers was the defining moment of Hartley for me. Plenty of striking ability to score goals and give them a game but we go there with Loy and Stewart on the flanks and Harkins off the striker to defend up against their young athletic speedsters. Just completely batshit going into a game of that magnitude set up in such an attacking way and expecting to play things on our terms and not even putting a single glove on them.

I think he's probably a very good coach and great for certain players but just don't think he has it in him to be pragmatic and handle situations like that. In fairness he did have moments of learning and eventually understood in that last season that we needed a cheap target man and needed to shitfest but I just get the feeling every season would have been groundhog day where we worked ourselves up to that level of disappointment.

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3 minutes ago, harry94 said:

In all honesty, the manner of us finishing 8th was a concern to me.

We were a team formed around lightweight midfielders and our spine was weak as shit. We could look effortless in scoring 4 or 5 against a mid table side off their game one weak and then well beaten by Hamilton the next.

For me, the first aim of a Dundee side in the top flight is to say we'll be the meanest defensive side in the league. You can build a defensively sound side in the top flight relatively cheaply based around fairly average players and sustain yourself to beyond 40 points. Motherwell broke the mould a few years ago with scoring an unreal no of goals but a solid defence is the top formula for teams of our stature in the country to consistently stay safe and have those odd good years. If we go up really reliant on attacking players who are a bit special and focus on playing a bit of football, we're in very big trouble the first bad injury or sign that they are off.

That hammering by Rangers was the defining moment of Hartley for me. Plenty of striking ability to score goals and give them a game but we go there with Loy and Stewart on the flanks and Harkins off the striker to defend up against their young athletic speedsters. Just completely batshit going into a game of that magnitude set up in such an attacking way and expecting to play things on our terms and not even putting a single glove on them.

I think he's probably a very good coach and great for certain players but just don't think he has it in him to be pragmatic and handle situations like that. In fairness he did have moments of learning and eventually understood in that last season that we needed a cheap target man and needed to shitfest but I just get the feeling every season would have been groundhog day where we worked ourselves up to that level of disappointment.

That seems more that you have a differing philosophy on football than anything else and in some cases I agree wholeheartedly and in others I don't. He based his teams on a more attacking form of defence whilst you take the more traditional view of things. I reckon our team was a hard b*****d type in midfield away from being a very successful team at it's peak and that I do agree on, the midfield needed addressing and balancing.

I think that Rangers game we went in with the attitude that we'd walk right over them (as we did a season or 2 later with O'Hara putting them to the sword a few times) and were punished by a team that had its first chance to try and prove they were Rangers of old. We were always in trouble that game but things might have been different if we'd held our nerve past the opening minute!

I'd love the level of groundhog day that we had under Hartley compared to absolutely anything else we've had since the Bonetti era back in 2001 tbh.

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30 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

I think that Rangers game we went in with the attitude that we'd walk right over them 

As did every poster on here, bar a select few of us. The arrogance was astonishing and then when it all come crashing down - the blame game was worse. 

We had absolutely no right to stagger into that game thinking we'd steamroll an expensively assembled side (most of whom would walk into our side at the time) but yet it happened. As it did later against Ayr with McCann. 

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3 minutes ago, Mr. Alli said:

As did every poster on here, bar a select few of us. The arrogance was astonishing and then when it all come crashing down - the blame game was worse. 

We had absolutely no right to stagger into that game thinking we'd steamroll an expensively assembled side (most of whom would walk into our side at the time) but yet it happened. As it did later against Ayr with McCann. 

I genuinely thought just there in hindsight that we were coming off a good win and had a bit of reason for the confidence, but we'd snuck a point at Parkhead 3 days prior and I guess that's where it came from. As for the Ayr debacle, I don't think that was near the same, it was just the first real indication that we were a shockingly shite team. If there was a similar amount of overconfidence going into that game, I don't remember it. I just remember going to work, realising my shift had been changed, racing to Dens to watch, and then desperately wishing I had been working that day.

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At Cove he does have decent financial backing, but not to the extent that's made out. His 'big money signings' include Fraser Fyvie who couldn't win a deal at us or a few other Championship clubs after being on trial and Rory McAllister who left Peterhead to join but is now 33. Cove are also still part-time competing against 2 massive clubs (and not to mention full time) at that sort of level in Falkirk and Partick Thistle.


 

Would say that the lack of big names at Cove is more down to them being a part time club based in Aberdeen though?I think if they were based more centrally you’d see bigger names signing, going by the money they (allegedly) pay.

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