All things Dundee FC

[Fifespud]

Very good report in the Mail today about where our club is at and is the exact type of match summary and comments about the club’s current situation that should be published in the local press. 
 
I really can’t get my head around there not being an announcement today that McPake has been relieved of his manager’s duties. Is the board too distracted by other things like the new stadium to neglect the biggest problem at the club? I honestly can’t think of anything else. 

Can you post a link Yenitit?

[Derry Alli]

2 hours ago, Den Spark said:

Once went to 135 Dundee games on the trot, home and away. Now totally scunnered and, after 54 years, although I've got a season ticket that gives me DeeTV access, am going to give the match at Dens a miss tomorrow night. That's where I'm at.

Sorry to read this but I understand where you're at. Hopefully you get the lust for it back, you're one of the least bias and forthright posters who reports as they see it. Win, lose or draw without the overreaction that's become the norm. 

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Alli said:

Sorry to read this but I understand where you're at. Hopefully you get the lust for it back, you're one of the least bias and forthright posters who reports as they see it. Win, lose or draw without the overreaction that's become the norm. 

Don't think there's been any overreaction on here, we've had coming up for two years of this pish, and people are sick to death of it.

[Spikethedee]

Can anyone point to any great performances we've had under McPake?

The Hearts game at Dens, Sow getting a hat-trick against a very poor Queens (even that is pushing it a bit)? Apart from that, am struggling to think of any. Last season was a total shambles, this one is pretty much the same.

Looking at the players McPake has had available at various points over these last two years, it's shocking that the best we have managed is two separate runs of three league wins on the trot (Ayr, Alloa, Morten last season, Queens, Alloa, Hearts this season): Adam, Dorrans, Hemmings, Byrne, Ness, Johnson, Nelson, Sow, Fin, Berra, Callachan  as well as Jakubiak and Cummings who have hardly featured, for different reasons of course.

We've lost several points from winning positions, have looked comically inept and un-prepared in defence for most of that time (only 12 clean sheets in the league), and have suffered from the most mystifying set of substitutions since Bonetti used to play his "how many times in a season will I sub the sub" game.

It really has got to the stage where us winning any of the next few games would, in the long run, be a bad thing, as there's no way McPake would get the bullet after a decent run (well, at least five terrible runs haven't resulted in a P45) and it would totally scupper our chances for the next season as well, as we would be stuck with the same shite again and again. I can't see us finishing any higher than 4th the way things are going at the moment, and there's no way I would back us to win a game in the playoffs, nevermind win a single tie, nevermind three ties.

However, I suspect we will all be saying the same thing throughout March and April, and probably well into next season too.

 

Why do we do this to ourselves?????

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

28 minutes ago, Spikethedee said:

 

However, I suspect we will all be saying the same thing throughout March and April, and probably well into next season too.

 

[stu2910]

Heard all of that shite, time and time again from McPake, like a broken record.

In fairness, the alternative is that he says we were good enough to get a result, blames the refs decisions, then says we probably won’t bother trying to get a result midweek.

How is that better?!

He was asked the question so had to answer, what should he have said?

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

1 minute ago, stu2910 said:

In fairness, the alternative is that he says we were good enough to get a result, blames the refs decisions, then says we probably won’t bother trying to get a result midweek.

How is that better?!

He was asked the question so had to answer, what should he have said?

I couldn't give a monkeys what he says, not interested anymore.

[RossBFaeDundee]

2 minutes ago, stu2910 said:

In fairness, the alternative is that he says we were good enough to get a result, blames the refs decisions, then says we probably won’t bother trying to get a result midweek.

How is that better?!

He was asked the question so had to answer, what should he have said?

It's not better to pretend otherwise. He is saying the right things. The problem is, how many times should he get away with just saying "we're not good enough, me included" before any action is done about it?

[stu2910]

It's not better to pretend otherwise. He is saying the right things. The problem is, how many times should he get away with just saying "we're not good enough, me included" before any action is done about it?

I agree, just think there are many sticks to beat McPake with that are far more relevant than his interviews. Player and manager interviews are a complete waste of time in general. 99% of them are just dull predictable rubbish.

[Shadow Play]

1 hour ago, stu2910 said:

I agree, just think there are many sticks to beat McPake with that are far more relevant than his interviews. Player and manager interviews are a complete waste of time in general. 99% of them are just dull predictable rubbish.

I can’t think of any other manager in a post match interview that admitted he didn’t know it took to 80 minutes + before his team had their first shot on goal.  You’d think he’d know details like that, surely?

Edited February 22, 2021 by Shadow Play

[This Charming Man]

1 hour ago, Shadow Play said:

I can’t think of any other manager in a post match interview that admitted he didn’t know it took to 80 minutes + before his team had their first shot on goal.  You’d think he’d know details like that, surely?

Sneaky suspicion that may have been the November 2019 game last season at Dens against United in which we were completely outplayed and only lost 0-2.

Quite a few in the sell out home crowd would have missed it as we were queuing to get out, myself included, absolutely dire.

Not so long ago Neil McCann was given the target of top six, fast forward and we may not even achieve top six in The Championship under James McPake.. 

Astonishing John Nelms' has not acted as yet. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by This Charming Man

[Dundee-FC92]

37 minutes ago, This Charming Man said:

Sneaky suspicion that may have been the November 2019 game last season at Dens against United in which we were completely outplayed and only lost 0-2.

Quite a few in the sell out home crowd would have missed it as we were queuing to get out, myself included, absolutely dire.

Not so long ago Neil McCann was given the target of top six, fast forward and we may not even achieve top six in The Championship under James McPake.. 

Astonishing John Nelms' has not acted as yet. 

Andrew Nelson played out wide that day and had a howler. Gave the ball away for one of the goals in a defensive position.

Well over one year later and McGowan who played that night centrally is being used as one of our first choice wide men in the squad.

Disgrace.

Thank you.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

13 minutes ago, Dundee-FC92 said:

Andrew Nelson

Another decent player, IMO, that was ruined/booted out.

[Dundee-FC92]

5 hours ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

Don't think there's been any overreaction on here, we've had coming up for two years of this pish, and people are sick to death of it.

Two years of pish under McPake. You can extend that by years if you want to include McIntyre and McCann.

The football under McCann for me was absolutely appalling, bar the odd game that gave his fluid football falacy a lifeline.

Since the moment we relegated the DABs the football has been the finest quality manure. Instead of using Hooleys river of tears to slide away from the sinking ship across the road, we jumped into the same salty rapid river to obscurity. The DABs can't laugh either; when they lose Shankland they'll be fucked.

We're failing miserably as a club and have been for years. We make superb individual signings time and time again (Scott Allan, Caulker, Dorrans, Adam, Cummings) but we don't bother about the men who will lead these players.

We need a fresh start and that requires McPake to go RIGHT NOW. Bring in a manager who can take us forward with experience and past successes to fall back on. 

If they never managed to take us up this season let them have a look, do what they need to in the summer with the likes of Hamilton, Kerr and Forster and get this club moving in the right direction.

That's all the fans want. All I'm asking for is a competent manager to lead the club - Nelms last three have been hugely detrimental to our club and the next one is crucial. 

We're going nowhere under the current regime. Can you imagine McPake sliding through the play offs and managing in the premier league? There's no vision or purpose at the minute.

McPake out, now.

Thank you.

 

[Dundee-FC92]

33 minutes ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

Another decent player, IMO, that was ruined/booted out.

Agreed.

Came in and made an immediate impact scoring the winner at Tynecastle and Livi other sides of a quality double at home to Killie.

Then couldn't get a kick in the Championship despite scoring the winner as a sub in the first home match of the season.

Hemmings and Johnson were brought in to make it three potential leading scorers within the division with only one playing per week. Three out and out strikers with Hamilton being left in goal, Kerr right back and one winger.

The running of this club is almost comical. We have every right to scald the morons in charge of this omnishambles.

Thank you.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Dundee-FC92

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

3 minutes ago, Dundee-FC92 said:

 

Hemmings and Johnson were brought in to make it three potential leading scorers within the division with only one playing per week.

 

That was the worst part of it all, watching Hemmings running himself into the ground, in a formation that was absolute nonsense.

[Boo Khaki]

34 minutes ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

That was the worst part of it all, watching Hemmings running himself into the ground, in a formation that was absolute nonsense.

This was the worst thing about last season. 

McPake had clearly made his mind up in preseason that we were going to play a 3/5/2 system, which on the face of it didn't look like a bad shout, but then all it took all of 45 mins for Dunfermline to expose the fact that our fullbacks weren't up to it positionally, the back 3 lacked any sort of coordination and orchestration, the midfield was totally pedestrian, and generally it looked like the players didn't actually understand what they were supposed to be doing in that formation.

So the 3 promptly gets binned for a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1, neither of which worked either, because in the 4-4 the two central midfielders just got totally overrun no matter who we played in there, and in the 4-2-3 the lone striker, usually Hemmings, was rendered completely ineffectual and a complete passenger, thanks to the fact that despite effectively having a 5 man midfield, there wasn't a single midfielder at the club with the athleticism and dynamism to actually get forward and support our striker.

You hear it often said about managers 'oh, he's got no plan B'. but the galling thing about McPake wasn't the lack of a plan B, it was the fact that his plan A turned out to be unfeasible given the limitations of the playing squad, as well as the plan B and plan C being equally as inept.

Exactly the same thing has happened this season. He finally recognises the problem and sticks McGhee in midfield, we look like a half-way competent side, pick up some results, McGhee gets injured, and lo and behold the side looks exactly as it did before. Shambolic at the back, pedestrian in midfield, and toothless up front. When you have a long-standing, obvious, and fundamentally fairly simple issue like this dragging on for two years, despite the manager being given perfectly adequate resources with which to address it, and we're still utterly reliant on the services of one single player to make the entire thing viable, then I don't know what else could possibly be a more damning indictment of McPake's total lack of managerial ability. He needs emptied ASAP because he's not learning, he's just proving he can't build anything viable with the players he has, or diagnose and correct fundamental issues.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Boo Khaki

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

49 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

This was the worst thing about last season. 

McPake had clearly made his mind up in preseason that we were going to play a 3/5/2 system, which on the face of it didn't look like a bad shout, but then all it took all of 45 mins for Dunfermline to expose the fact that our fullbacks weren't up to it positionally, the back 3 lacked any sort of coordination and orchestration, the midfield was totally pedestrian, and generally it looked like the players didn't actually understand what they were supposed to be doing in that formation.

So the 3 promptly gets binned for a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1, neither of which worked either, because in the 4-4 the two central midfielders just got totally overrun no matter who we played in there, and in the 4-2-3 the lone striker, usually Hemmings, was rendered completely ineffectual and a complete passenger, thanks to the fact that despite effectively having a 5 man midfield, there wasn't a single midfielder at the club with the athleticism and dynamism to actually get forward and support our striker.

You hear it often said about managers 'oh, he's got no plan B'. but the galling thing about McPake wasn't the lack of a plan B, it was the fact that his plan A turned out to be unfeasible given the limitations of the playing squad, as well as the plan B and plan C being equally as inept.

Exactly the same thing has happened this season. He finally recognises the problem and sticks McGhee in midfield, we look like a half-way competent side, pick up some results, McGhee gets injured, and lo and behold the side looks exactly as it did before. Shambolic at the back, pedestrian in midfield, and toothless up front. When you have a long-standing, obvious, and fundamentally fairly simple issue like this dragging on for two years, despite the manager being given perfectly adequate resources with which to address it, and we're still utterly reliant on the services of one single player to make the entire thing viable, then I don't know what else could possibly be a more damning indictment of McPake's total lack of managerial ability. He needs emptied ASAP because he's not learning, he's just proving he can't build anything viable with the players he has, or diagnose and correct fundamental issues.

Well said, that's the whole shit-show, in a nutshell.

Thank you.

[Boo Khaki]

The basic reason I have no faith in McPake is this -

When your team is playing like shit, or not getting the results you expect, you can approach it using a method something along these lines -

1. Analyse your teams performance, diagnose what went wrong, what went right, and most importantly, why. What 'made the team tick', or 'not tick' as the case might be.

2. Assess what it is you require to correct the deficiencies, both in terms of changing tactical approach, but also from the perspective of resources. Do you have the means available to alter it for the better, but also, what are the likely knock-on effects of any changes you make? Have you factored this into your thinking?

3. Implement the necessary changes, observe, adjust as necessary, review the outcome.

The very best managers are adept at all three phases, which is why they can return positive results over an extended period, persist through turmoil and change, and generally achieve what's expected of them and stay in a job.

Most of the journeyman types, half-decent guys, or coaches who are reasonably competent but perhaps a bit limited fall down a bit at stage two. Sometimes it's for lack of resources, sometimes its about the unintended consequences. It isn't always easy to predict exactly what is going to happen if you change something, and it is a bit of a black art. Of course, luck, and good fortune can play a part in success or failure too, but if you do the correct thing as often as you can, generally the outcome will be positive more often than it is negative.

The bad managers, and I include McPake in this, fail with the very first part. They lack the requisite nous to interpret what is happening and draw the correct conclusions. The problem here, is that you can not move on to phases two and then three without first resolving phase one, or at least, if you do move on, it will be under false pretences, because you have not reached the correct conclusions, or have been incapable of drawing any conclusion at all, so either things will just continue the way they are, or any changes you do make are essentially just throwing darts at a dartboard, or are fundamentally unsound because you are likely just guessing or flat-out implementing the wrong changes due to your flawed process.

I've said it before, but I reckon McPake isn't particularly bright, hence why he can't get through phase one competently, why we witness the same unresolved problems week after week, month after month, and why the side is rubber ducked for as long as he's the manager.

Edit -

Oh, should probably add, the reason I'm convinced of this is that nearly two years ago I thought we had three fundamental problems with the side. 

1 - shitty standard of goalkeeping

2 - a lack of variety in midfield, specifically a glaring lack of any sort of box-to-box presence and a general lethargy and absence of athleticism

3 - ropey fullbacks, especially so on the right side. I think Marshall is 'adequate', but certainly no more than that. The two right sided fullbacks both have horrendous shortcomings, so I think that in all honesty we're fucked no matter who we play there.

The fact that these are still glaring issues nearly two years on is, in my opinion, a testimony to the fact that McPake just can not assess a performance, diagnose a problem, and correct it. He's signed umpteen central midfielders, strikers, centre backs etc, but the three most glaring issues remain unresolved. You have to wonder why.

One other little thing. If you remember back to Jordan Marshall's injury last season, due to the fact we had no other left-back at the club Declan McDaid ended up playing wingback for us, and despite my initial fears, I thought he actually played his best football for the club in that role. As far as I'm aware, Marshall is still the only full time leftback in the squad, and we've loaned McDaid out for the remainder of the season/his contract. Has it occurred to McPake that there are no guarantees that Marshall will not pick up some sort of injury between now and the end of the season? Is the contingency honestly to expect Cammy Kerr to fill in there yet again if the worst happens? Given how absolutely atrocious Kerr has been any time he's played there, I can not accept that this is a credible proposition, but here we are. I sometimes feel like McPake is so daft that he honestly doesn't foresee these potential problems arising. See going into seasons intending to play with three CB's when you only actually have three CB's in the squad, for example.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Boo Khaki

[Fifespud]

Well said, that's the whole shit-show, in a nutshell.
Thank you.

And to make it worse we have a CEO who can’t see it and/or does nothing about it.

Wanting Ayr to win.