The Master Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 27 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: Regardless of that, surely you aren't arguing that Dundee should be running up a loss to get top 6? That depends on how the endeavour is being financed. Loans don't appear as revenue on the balance sheet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 14 minutes ago, The Master said: That depends on how the endeavour is being financed. Loans don't appear as revenue on the balance sheet. Indeed but history has taught my club, your club and many others that such an approach is mental. A club running an overall loss is mental. If a club has a positive bank balance and runs up losses against that balance (i.e. they're never in debt) then that's fine but running on a balance sheet deficit is stupid beyond belief 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: Indeed but history has taught my club, your club and many others that such an approach is mental. A club running an overall loss is mental. If a club has a positive bank balance and runs up losses against that balance (i.e. they're never in debt) then that's fine but running on a balance sheet deficit is stupid beyond belief Well, no, because in "history" the loans that financed our losses were from the bank. In some ways, we were our own version of the 2007 crash - the Marrs et. al. borrowed heavily to finance the purchase of players that would subsequently be sold off at huge profits. Then the transfer market crashed... Shareholder loans are different. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, The Master said: Well, no, because in "history" the loans that financed our losses were from the bank. In some ways, we were our own version of the 2007 crash - the Marrs et. al. borrowed heavily to finance the purchase of players that would subsequently be sold off at huge profits. Then the transfer market crashed... Shareholder loans are different. The loans that financed our losses were also from the bank 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Anyway, you come across as a sensible poster to me, so surely you aren't advocating running at a loss to get top 6? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 8 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: The loans that financed our losses were also from the bank I didn't want to comment on Dunfermline since I didn't know the precise circumstances. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there, though, because I was pointing out that bank loans are bad and contrasting them with shareholder loans. 6 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: Anyway, you come across as a sensible poster to me, so surely you aren't advocating running at a loss to get top 6? As I said, it depends on how the loss is financed. If the only reason for a (balance sheet) loss is because shareholders/directors are providing loans as an alternative to investment, It's far less concerning than relying on an overdraft facility. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juantwothree Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Like I said in my first post Diddy teams getting envoled in our finances haha DDYB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 7 hours ago, The Master said: In Hearts' case it was very unusual circumstances. Hibs were, well, Hibs. Nine seasons out of ten at least one will be in the top 6; seven or eight, both. How many times have they made the top six in the last ten years? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainbowrising Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 The Master outlines why people.need to calm down here. Debt is a strange beast: if as put forward, individuals are prepared to take a hit for the club then that is not the same as falling behind on a bank driven debt. Even with banks there is good debt and bad debt ( just making a wider comment on the world of finance rather than for DFC). These pages are nothing more than 'look! a number! A NUMBER!' arguments. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 The Terrace bois out there just saying what everyone (other than Dundee fans) is thinking. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, capt_oats said: The Terrace bois out there just saying what everyone (other than Dundee fans) is thinking. Yes, but that's ignoring their building a stadium that will solve every issue they have. Like it has done for Falkirk. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aufc Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Is it not a bit daft to budget for top 6 considering dundee will realistically be fighting for one spot with 7 other teams? Celtic, rangers, hearts, hibs, aberdeen are almost guaranteed top 6 so dundee are relying on being better than motherwell and st johnstone who have both consistently being in the top 6 or thereabouts lately. That is also ignoring the possibility of one of the other teams coming good as seen by Killie this season 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree house tam Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 This is nothing new, they've been doing it for years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 If we've been budgeting for top six and not achieving it, I'm not sure budgeting for the bottom half is a guarantee of success and stability.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aufc Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 If we've been budgeting for top six and not achieving it, I'm not sure budgeting for the bottom half is a guarantee of success and stability.... Better for finances to overachieve than consistently underachieve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Better for finances to overachieve than consistently underachieveI was more hinting at relegation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, harry94 said: 45 minutes ago, Aufc said: Better for finances to overachieve than consistently underachieve I was more hinting at relegation. Think clubs outwith the "big five" have to understand relegation is always more of a possibility than the top half, especially when the five big clubs have their houses in order. There's never more than one lucky signing between the majority of bottom half clubs in the league, it's foolish to run at a loss to try and overcome that, IMO. Edited March 4, 2018 by RandomGuy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Think clubs outwith the "big five" have to understand relegation is always more of a possibility than the top half, especially when the five big clubs have their houses in order. There's never more than one lucky signing between the majority of bottom half clubs in the league, it's foolish to run at a loss to try and overcome that, IMO. I see your point but when you've got a side through upheaval, it seems a bit harder to get the budget spent at a reasonable cost.First year we come up, we needed almost a whole new team and were probably poorer second tier winners who were not that well equipped (scraping past Hamilton was a bit of a fluke IMO). Second year, we were a bit better off and by the end of the year, we had the squad size down quite a bit and were where I'd want us to be in squad size. Hartley then spunked a lot of money on long term deals last season after losing key players and we had to fix that by spending on emergency signings and then paying him off. This year, we're paying for those errors to give McCann a reasonable shot to get his own team together and even then, he's still relying on guys who you wouldn't have expected he'd sign.To me, we've fucked up really badly with giving out so many long term deals last season and don't really have much of a choice to run a deficit or go down and see the structure of the club decimated. I don't know who made the final call but three years to injury prone players/ageing like Nicky Low, James Vincent, Marcus Haber, Darren O'Dea etc was a fatal error.I think we could be OK with McCann next year (dramatically decreasing the deficit) with the way he plays youth and the sort of signings he makes if we see it out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifespud Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 I thought it was a fact that we have been budgeting for a top six finish? Is why this season has been hugely disappointing .So the stadium should be getting started soon since all we are waiting on is finding out which company is going to build our stadium ?Exciting times.Will this still go ahead regardless of what league we are in ? Or do we need to find some gems and keep selling them to pay for this stadium?Right now I believe /think we don't really have any players of any value right now Hamilton, United, Motherwell etc even Celtic have sold players regularly to balance the books. It’s just that we’ve been so shite at it that it seems a novelty. For what it’s worth I think we should run a balanced budget but whilst Tim Keys is prepared to chip in an average of 250k a season (the vast bulk of which the club will have recouped in the sale of Hendry) then it’s not really that bad. Tim Keys more than likely pays 250k a year in Country Club fees. If, as they have said they will, they convert the loans into equity that’s surely a good outcome? The loans basically become a capital injection (Master?). If, as they also state, they then transfer the FPS shares to the Stadium development company we will be back to one entity owning the whole shooting match - just like (whisper it) - St Johnstone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifespud Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Do you think he will keep throwing this sort of money at us if we keep underachieving? No, but as Harry pointed out there have been extenuating circumstances. With regard to youth he has played Waddell, Henvey and Curran regularly and Hendry, Kamara and Spence are (were) all young too. Can’t see how he could have played much more youth to be honest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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