All things Dundee FC

[Shadow Play]

1 hour ago, Ludo*1 said:

Yeah, don't disagree with that, more the fact that Bowyer stated he expected 3-4 in during the week before the deadline and the club delivered 0.

These days, a manager just hands a list of players they want and the decision makers (be that Nelms or Strachan for us) work their way through it if they can't get the top player. To end up bringing in 0 is failing the manager. And if Bowyer wanted to bring another 3-4 in, that's him clearly saying the squad isn't good enough at present IMO.

Don’t  get me wrong I’m as disappointed as everyone else that we didn’t strengthen the team further but what if the players Bowyer wanted in would have cost too much?  If that is the case I’m glad the board didn’t dish out expensive 2-3  year deals. 

The wages Nelms allegedly dished out under Hartley in particular were way more than the players of their standing could have realistically got elsewhere in this country.  

Danny Williams, Tom Hately, James Vincent and Nick Ross spring to mind. I haven’t bothered looking up where these players ended up after us but I’d be amazed if they remained in this country on anything like the wages they were said to be getting at Dens. 

 

 

[Ludo*1]

8 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

Don’t  get me wrong I’m as disappointed as everyone else that we didn’t strengthen the team further but what if the players Bowyer wanted in would have cost too much?  If that is the case I’m glad the board didn’t dish out expensive 2-3  year deals. 

The wages Nelms allegedly dished out under Hartley in particular were way more than the players of their standing could have realistically got elsewhere in this country.  

Danny Williams, Tom Hately, James Vincent and Nick Ross spring to mind. I haven’t bothered looking up where these players ended up after us but I’d be amazed if they remained in this country on anything like the wages they were said to be getting at Dens. 

 

 

I mean, he's entitled to a bit of backing and this is the sort of stuff, that if led by a competent board would have asked before his appointment.

So far he's been backed with 3 loan deals, 2 of which have come from their respective clubs youth development squads and 1 actual signing.

Comparing Nelms actions with a manager that made the aforementioned signings some of which are close to a decade ago shouldn't be coming into the equation.

I think it's fairly clear that Bowyer hasn't been backed appropriately hence how he's tried his best to get the likes of Byrne off the books.

[Juantwothree]

1 hour ago, Fifespud said:

I strongly voiced my opposition to appointing someone with a track record of abject mediocrity (no point in going over that ground as I highlight the negatives - you the positives and I’ll admit there have been some) but since then I’ve been very positive and supportive.
The managers job is to build the players confidence up, they can’t be total losers as about 75% of them got us promoted not much more than a year ago!
We’ve had 3 disappointing results against teams in our league and it’s got to stop otherwise it’s going to be another horrendous season and I’m not sure how many more we can take, the crowd is already dropping. Livi had less than 3000 at their game on Saturday, they don’t have a sugar daddy as far as I’m aware and they’re in the top 6. We must demand better.

Who do you suppose should have got the job then? And don't say Jack Ross

[Peadar BigDinnerO'Driscoll]

Think Bowyers CV is plenty good enough for a Scottish Championship side. There are no top sides in this lge this year....no Hibs, Hearts, Rangers...even...dare I say it...United. Even McPake got 2nd with a lot of these lads so I'm expecting first with Bowyer.

[Shadow Play]

1 hour ago, Ludo*1 said:

I mean, he's entitled to a bit of backing and this is the sort of stuff, that if led by a competent board would have asked before his appointment.

So far he's been backed with 3 loan deals, 2 of which have come from their respective clubs youth development squads and 1 actual signing.

Comparing Nelms actions with a manager that made the aforementioned signings some of which are close to a decade ago shouldn't be coming into the equation.

I think it's fairly clear that Bowyer hasn't been backed appropriately hence how he's tried his best to get the likes of Byrne off the books.

I would respectfully suggest Ludo it comes into the equation in so much as Nelms may feel he’s blindly backed managers in the past and is no longer willing to do so.  Good housekeeping may be more if a priority now.  Bad in one sense but overall probably understandable.

I do totally agree with you that discussions about future budgets should, and hopefully were, discussed prior to Bowyers appointment.  Has the board or Bowyer gone off script if such discussions did take place?  That would be a worry if that were the case. 

Anyway, I’ve seen every home game this season and I have to say I’m not actually that worried at this stage.  Other teams have more established managers and I really don’t think we are that far behind all things considered.

I think most of us are in agreement who the weakest links are.  If Bowyer can see this and sort them out we have every reason to be optimistic. 

 

[RossBFaeDundee]

2 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

Were you impressed with the way we performed in the league last time round? Promotion or not, it was abject 90% of the time!

Looking back to that season, even in March and April just before our final unbeaten stretch which got us up, there was plenty of "McPake out" shouts flying about, especially from myself. I actually find it somewhat amusing to read, mostly because we somehow ended up promoted at the end of it all.

This is just the nature of the Championship imo, there is no real foothold to steady any club as they all are shite in one way or another. Fully prepared for a full season of this, and we'll still have a half-decent shot at promotion despite this somehow. I'm not that worried yet anyway, but that partly is connected to my hope belief that as the season drags on our squad will manage the inevitable fatigue that a full season brings better than others.

Hopefully like that season though, we can do something of value in January. Maybe sign Jason Cumm- oh wait no, that ship hasn't half sailed off.

Edited September 19, 2022 by RossBFaeDundee

[Louis Litt]

Is Lyall Cameron injured or what?

[Fifespud]

Is Lyall Cameron injured or what?

No he isn’t. Raring to go.

[Fifespud]

Who do you suppose should have got the job then? And don't say Jack Ross

That’s not really my job but as I said at the time maybe someone who had just had 2 promotions in 3 seasons well down the pyramid, someone from Scandinavia, maybe someone from Australia because their players are flooding our premiership leading me to think that’s where the gems in the rough are.

[DieDee]

A referee that can do his job, and he was well positioned for the should have been a penalty and red card decision, and we would have won on Saturday.

Legzdins instead of Sharp and the first 2 goals wouldn't have happened. 

That said I'm far from pleased about Saturday and like most on here I think the line-up was a shocker. However, I'm not in agreement about some of the performances. I though Marshall was fine (that 2nd goal was down to Sharp, not even sure their player would have kept it in play), Sweeney was ok, scored and was unlucky with that 2nd booking. 

French played ok but was frequently out of position, I don't think it looks like his natural position. On top of that, the reward for Cammy, who has been playing well as RB, covering LB is to be dropped. That looks like a manager favouring players he has signed, never a good thing for squad morale. Of the 4 he has signed, who all started, only Robinson has impressed so far, though Grayson wasn't bad on Saturday. That said I don't know why Robinson was hooked as at least he can hold the ball up, Rudden was totally out of it given the gameplan of lumping it forward.

Why go for a lump it forward when playing on the ground has suited us much better? Why drop, or not even bring on Cameron, the brightest spark over the last couple of games. He can make a bigger impact and play better through balls than McGinn so why not play him?

I believe this squad can win this league if managed properly, Saturday was worrying

[Pens_Dark]

Just catching up from the weekend...

Referee was terrible but fucking hell we went 1-0 up and time after time managed to fucking shoot ourselves in the foot. I still believe Bowyer will get it right but ffs stop playing Sweeney. Absolute liability, slow as a week in jail and...somehow...our captain. 

Subbing Robinson off was a weird one. Mcgowan showed he should be starting every game which is depressing given how old he is. 

Shit result - only 4 points behind, not the end of the world but we need to wake up. 

[ATLIS]

On 19/09/2022 at 14:33, Fifespud said:

I strongly voiced my opposition to appointing someone with a track record of abject mediocrity (no point in going over that ground as I highlight the negatives - you the positives and I’ll admit there have been some) but since then I’ve been very positive and supportive.
The managers job is to build the players confidence up, they can’t be total losers as about 75% of them got us promoted not much more than a year ago!
We’ve had 3 disappointing results against teams in our league and it’s got to stop otherwise it’s going to be another horrendous season and I’m not sure how many more we can take, the crowd is already dropping. Livi had less than 3000 at their game on Saturday, they don’t have a sugar daddy as far as I’m aware and they’re in the top 6. We must demand better.

After our game we were up to third, fifth now after Hearts/St Mirren wins, but we've got the smallest budget in the league. It's just that Martindale's recruitment has been phenomenal for about 5/6 years. He consistently finds gems, I think a lot of that is down to stats based recruitment but there's also the fact that he can spot a player by eye pretty easily. More than just money, that's a staff personnel skill set thing. 

We've had two top 6 finishes, and not been too far off Europe in both of those. We finished 6th last season pretty easily too. The point about a manager with a record of mediocrity makes sense but what proven and strong manager is going to come to Scotland if they aren't here already, let alone going to the second tier.

Even guys like Alexander struggled at Motherwell.

[Shadow Play]

8 hours ago, DieDee said:

A referee that can do his job, and he was well positioned for the should have been a penalty and red card decision, and we would have won on Saturday.

Legzdins instead of Sharp and the first 2 goals wouldn't have happened. 

That said I'm far from pleased about Saturday and like most on here I think the line-up was a shocker. However, I'm not in agreement about some of the performances. I though Marshall was fine (that 2nd goal was down to Sharp, not even sure their player would have kept it in play), Sweeney was ok, scored and was unlucky with that 2nd booking. 

French played ok but was frequently out of position, I don't think it looks like his natural position. On top of that, the reward for Cammy, who has been playing well as RB, covering LB is to be dropped. That looks like a manager favouring players he has signed, never a good thing for squad morale. Of the 4 he has signed, who all started, only Robinson has impressed so far, though Grayson wasn't bad on Saturday. That said I don't know why Robinson was hooked as at least he can hold the ball up, Rudden was totally out of it given the gameplan of lumping it forward.

Why go for a lump it forward when playing on the ground has suited us much better? Why drop, or not even bring on Cameron, the brightest spark over the last couple of games. He can make a bigger impact and play better through balls than McGinn so why not play him?

I believe this squad can win this league if managed properly, Saturday was worrying

I was in line with the penalty box for their penalty.  Marshall just stopped running.  The Inverness player did not - despite Marshall being at least two yards in front of him.  Yes, Sharp was also to blame but I didn’t hear a shout from Sharp or Marshall (absolute basics) so Marshall should have ushered the ball out and if at any time he thought the Inverness player could get the ball he should have booted the ball onto the roof of Tip Top.  

It was either lazy defending by Marshall or he was completely unaware of the danger.  Either way it’s not good defending.

ETA Sweeney is having a nightmare season.  He’s certainly not a captain.

Just my opinions of course.

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Shadow Play

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

10 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

I was in line with the penalty box for their penalty.  Marshall just stopped running.  The Inverness player did not - despite Marshall being at least two yards in front of him.  Yes, Sharp was also to blame but I didn’t hear a shout from Sharp or Marshall (absolute basics) so Marshall should have ushered the ball out and if at any time he thought the Inverness player could get the ball he should have booted the ball onto the roof of Tip Top.  

It was either lazy defending by Marshall or he was completely unaware of the danger.  Either way it’s not good defending.

ETA Sweeney is having a nightmare season.  He’s certainly not a captain.

Just my opinions of course.

 

Opposite end of the ground so didn't really see it in real time, saw it on the ict highlights though, and you're right, absolutely shocking defending from Marshall. Starting to get right on my tits the amount of goals this guy is flogging. I would punt him.

[Fifespud]

After our game we were up to third, fifth now after Hearts/St Mirren wins, but we've got the smallest budget in the league. It's just that Martindale's recruitment has been phenomenal for about 5/6 years. He consistently finds gems, I think a lot of that is down to stats based recruitment but there's also the fact that he can spot a player by eye pretty easily. More than just money, that's a staff personnel skill set thing. 

We've had two top 6 finishes, and not been too far off Europe in both of those. We finished 6th last season pretty easily too. The point about a manager with a record of mediocrity makes sense but what proven and strong manager is going to come to Scotland if they aren't here already, let alone going to the second tier.

Even guys like Alexander struggled at Motherwell.

I think my second post agrees with you in a lot of ways, I’m saying employ someone with a record of success at a lower level and hope they can continue their trajectory.

[Fifespud]

Opposite end of the ground so didn't really see it in real time, saw it on the ict highlights though, and you're right, absolutely shocking defending from Marshall. Starting to get right on my tits the amount of goals this guy is flogging. I would punt him.

It’s remarkable how many goals we lose down his side. I used to think he was unlucky but I’ve come to the conclusion he can’t defend for toffee.

[ATLIS]

2 hours ago, Fifespud said:

I think my second post agrees with you in a lot of ways, I’m saying employ someone with a record of success at a lower level and hope they can continue their trajectory.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense, no idea who you'd actually go for though. Guys like Hopkin that would've fit into that 5 years ago haven't actually done well

Edited September 20, 2022 by ATLIS

[capt_oats]

On 19/09/2022 at 20:17, Fifespud said:

That’s not really my job but as I said at the time maybe someone who had just had 2 promotions in 3 seasons well down the pyramid, someone from Scandinavia, maybe someone from Australia because their players are flooding our premiership leading me to think that’s where the gems in the rough are.

It's probably a moot point because everything we've heard has suggested that Hammell was a lock for the job and the others we spoke to were part of process but either way this was a really weird thing for CCM to Tweet out from their official.

It seems we had Nick Montgomery on the shortlist to replace Alexander and according to the article that's linked it was off the back of a recruitment algorithm.

Quote

"It's believed Montgomery's named flashed up on Motherwell's radar through an algorithm the club has adopted to identify coaches who can source, mould and ultimately sell on young talent, much in the way the Yorkshireman has recently accomplished with likes of Kye Rowles and Lewis Miller, both of home are ironically now based in the Scottish Premiership"

Link

Edited September 21, 2022 by capt_oats

[capt_oats]

21 hours ago, ATLIS said:

Even guys like Alexander struggled at Motherwell.

I mean, did he?

Not to white knight Alexander (or overly post about Motherwell in the Dundee thread) but he took us from joint bottom of the league to a comfortable 8th (we finished on the same points as 7th - 15 points clear of relegation and 9 points clear of the play-off). In his only full season he secured Top 6 and qualified for Europe.

He finished 2021 with the 3rd highest points total in the league for the calendar year. He's the only manager outside the OF teams to win MOM 3 times in a calendar year - the only other managers to have done so have been Neil Lennon, Steven Gerrard, Alex McLeish, Brendan Rodgers and Gordon Strachan.

He was by no means a popular manager and everything we've heard subsequent to his departure suggests that he'd lost the dressing room. Like every Motherwell manager he hit a poor run of form (Jan 22 - March 22). It seems the board had reservations about the direction we were going with him and the Sligo result put the tin lid on it but his win % as Motherwell manager was 39.1% compared with other "successful" Motherwell managers like Stephen Robinson (42%) and Stuart McCall (42.5%).

As I say, he wasn't popular, neither fans nor it seems players enjoyed his specific brand of murderball and he misjudged a fair amount of stuff but I don't think he "struggled".

Edited September 21, 2022 by capt_oats

[D TOTAL]

Good thing about this break is it gives the guys with wee niggles a chance to ice it up, or guys like Sheridan another few days of match fitness,

bowyer also gets to have a right look at osei and any other guy that He wants a look at