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3 hours ago, Shadow Play said:

Another way to look at Hartley is that he had significant financial backing at Dundee in relation to other Championship sides and he did well. 

He only had Dundee in the Championship for about a month. 

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6 hours ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

Did Hartley not make a right mess of Falkirk?

Yep. Really bizarre what went on there. At Dundee, his biggest thing going for him was his work ethic. He'd be at pretty much every football game possible scouting for players or scouting the opposition. He wouldn't leave Dens until late at night and be the first one in, in the morning. Then he joins Falkirk and brings in some good quality players to dig them out of a relegation battle such as Andrew Nelson, Alex Jakubiak and Sean Welsh.

Over the pre-season, Falkirk scraps their youth system and Hartley has some English scout take over total control of the signing policy and the squad is filled with players like the Chelsea U23 captain etc and they're just utter shite and Hartley had never watched them play. Some conspiracy theories that it was a boardroom decision to have someone else in charge of the signings, but either way, really bizarre what went on that summer as it flew in the face of what Hartley's supposed strength in management is which is his work ethic.

5 hours ago, Shadow Play said:

He certainly did.  Another way to look at Hartley is that he had significant financial backing at Dundee in relation to other Championship sides and he did well.  As we know, when he lost Hemmings and Stewart things went from bad to worse.  He simply lost his way with the players he brought to the club.  Huge number of players in with very few making the grade.  This despite significant financial backing from Nelms.

At Cove he once again finds himself with significant financial backing in relation to the clubs around him does he not?

Don’t get me wrong there was some great football to watch under Hartley but in reality he just didn’t have what it takes to compete in the top flight.  He fully admitted in an interview after the Hamilton match at Dens, yes HAMILTON, that he didn’t know what else to do.  IIRC Hamilton’s manager at the time hasn’t exactly done on to greater things, yet he still out thought Hartley.

 

 

 

He was manager from February of 2014 and signed zero players. He didn't rate the squad, even said that we'd finish 3rd based on the squad's ability in a neutral interview whilst still manager of Alloa about a month before when he was asked to predict the finish to the season. John Brown had just quit as we slipped to 2nd in the league (on GD) with him publicly stating that he didn't believe he'd be able to get us up. Hartley came in, didn't sign a single player and won us the league. Budget backing had nothing to do with that. If anything, Hartley had to clear the decks as we had some amount of complete jobbers like Stephen Hughes, Adam Cummins, Carlo Monti, Sean Bonnet Johnson & Steven Doris on the books when he joined.

You say it went from 'bad' to 'worse' when we lost Hemmings & Stewart. Was that period bad? Finishing 8th in the top flight? Yeah, with those 2 we perhaps underperformed, but I'd bite your hand off for that level of underperformance watching the likes of those light up Dens as we finish 8th in the top flight. I don't think any of our managers since Jocky the 2nd time round has done something of that ilk and even then, Jocky did it in a much less entertaining way.

I agree, he did lose his way in his final season, but taking 41 goals out of a side(GGH, Stewart & Hemmings) that scored 53 goals in the league season 2 weeks before the next season starts and tell me a manager that wouldn't have lost his way. Tell me any team in Scotland, and I'd include either side of the OF, where you can take 3 talents that are that important to the side away from the club that close to the season start and have it not be a disaster. He signed Marcus Haber who ultimately went a long, long way to keeping us up in order for us to rebuild and whilst El Bak was ultimately a flop, he was the fan chosen replacement for Stewart after he'd ripped the league to shreds for Dunfermline the season before and was very much seen as a massive coup for us at the time. Who could have predicted he'd turn to shite? Not many at the time!

At Cove he does have decent financial backing, but not to the extent that's made out. His 'big money signings' include Fraser Fyvie who couldn't win a deal at us or a few other Championship clubs after being on trial and Rory McAllister who left Peterhead to join but is now 33. Cove are also still part-time competing against 2 massive clubs (and not to mention full time) at that sort of level in Falkirk and Partick Thistle.

Finally, the last point doesn't make sense. I fully agree he deserved to be punted when he did but to say because Hamilton beat us in a one off game means he's poorer than Martin Canning is just bizarre. He outperformed Alex Neil pretty convincingly in the games against each other, how does that fit in to that narrative?

 

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20 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

You say it went from 'bad' to 'worse' when we lost Hemmings & Stewart. Was that period bad? Finishing 8th in the top flight? Yeah, with those 2 we perhaps underperformed, but I'd bite your hand off for that level of underperformance watching the likes of those light up Dens as we finish 8th in the top flight. I don't think any of our managers since Jocky the 2nd time round has done something of that ilk and even then, Jocky did it in a much less entertaining way.

In all honesty, the manner of us finishing 8th was a concern to me.

We were a team formed around lightweight midfielders and our spine was weak as shit. We could look effortless in scoring 4 or 5 against a mid table side off their game one weak and then well beaten by Hamilton the next.

For me, the first aim of a Dundee side in the top flight is to say we'll be the meanest defensive side in the league. You can build a defensively sound side in the top flight relatively cheaply based around fairly average players and sustain yourself to beyond 40 points. Motherwell broke the mould a few years ago with scoring an unreal no of goals but a solid defence is the top formula for teams of our stature in the country to consistently stay safe and have those odd good years. If we go up really reliant on attacking players who are a bit special and focus on playing a bit of football, we're in very big trouble the first bad injury or sign that they are off.

That hammering by Rangers was the defining moment of Hartley for me. Plenty of striking ability to score goals and give them a game but we go there with Loy and Stewart on the flanks and Harkins off the striker to defend up against their young athletic speedsters. Just completely batshit going into a game of that magnitude set up in such an attacking way and expecting to play things on our terms and not even putting a single glove on them.

I think he's probably a very good coach and great for certain players but just don't think he has it in him to be pragmatic and handle situations like that. In fairness he did have moments of learning and eventually understood in that last season that we needed a cheap target man and needed to shitfest but I just get the feeling every season would have been groundhog day where we worked ourselves up to that level of disappointment.

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3 minutes ago, harry94 said:

In all honesty, the manner of us finishing 8th was a concern to me.

We were a team formed around lightweight midfielders and our spine was weak as shit. We could look effortless in scoring 4 or 5 against a mid table side off their game one weak and then well beaten by Hamilton the next.

For me, the first aim of a Dundee side in the top flight is to say we'll be the meanest defensive side in the league. You can build a defensively sound side in the top flight relatively cheaply based around fairly average players and sustain yourself to beyond 40 points. Motherwell broke the mould a few years ago with scoring an unreal no of goals but a solid defence is the top formula for teams of our stature in the country to consistently stay safe and have those odd good years. If we go up really reliant on attacking players who are a bit special and focus on playing a bit of football, we're in very big trouble the first bad injury or sign that they are off.

That hammering by Rangers was the defining moment of Hartley for me. Plenty of striking ability to score goals and give them a game but we go there with Loy and Stewart on the flanks and Harkins off the striker to defend up against their young athletic speedsters. Just completely batshit going into a game of that magnitude set up in such an attacking way and expecting to play things on our terms and not even putting a single glove on them.

I think he's probably a very good coach and great for certain players but just don't think he has it in him to be pragmatic and handle situations like that. In fairness he did have moments of learning and eventually understood in that last season that we needed a cheap target man and needed to shitfest but I just get the feeling every season would have been groundhog day where we worked ourselves up to that level of disappointment.

That seems more that you have a differing philosophy on football than anything else and in some cases I agree wholeheartedly and in others I don't. He based his teams on a more attacking form of defence whilst you take the more traditional view of things. I reckon our team was a hard b*****d type in midfield away from being a very successful team at it's peak and that I do agree on, the midfield needed addressing and balancing.

I think that Rangers game we went in with the attitude that we'd walk right over them (as we did a season or 2 later with O'Hara putting them to the sword a few times) and were punished by a team that had its first chance to try and prove they were Rangers of old. We were always in trouble that game but things might have been different if we'd held our nerve past the opening minute!

I'd love the level of groundhog day that we had under Hartley compared to absolutely anything else we've had since the Bonetti era back in 2001 tbh.

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30 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

I think that Rangers game we went in with the attitude that we'd walk right over them 

As did every poster on here, bar a select few of us. The arrogance was astonishing and then when it all come crashing down - the blame game was worse. 

We had absolutely no right to stagger into that game thinking we'd steamroll an expensively assembled side (most of whom would walk into our side at the time) but yet it happened. As it did later against Ayr with McCann. 

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3 minutes ago, Mr. Alli said:

As did every poster on here, bar a select few of us. The arrogance was astonishing and then when it all come crashing down - the blame game was worse. 

We had absolutely no right to stagger into that game thinking we'd steamroll an expensively assembled side (most of whom would walk into our side at the time) but yet it happened. As it did later against Ayr with McCann. 

I genuinely thought just there in hindsight that we were coming off a good win and had a bit of reason for the confidence, but we'd snuck a point at Parkhead 3 days prior and I guess that's where it came from. As for the Ayr debacle, I don't think that was near the same, it was just the first real indication that we were a shockingly shite team. If there was a similar amount of overconfidence going into that game, I don't remember it. I just remember going to work, realising my shift had been changed, racing to Dens to watch, and then desperately wishing I had been working that day.

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At Cove he does have decent financial backing, but not to the extent that's made out. His 'big money signings' include Fraser Fyvie who couldn't win a deal at us or a few other Championship clubs after being on trial and Rory McAllister who left Peterhead to join but is now 33. Cove are also still part-time competing against 2 massive clubs (and not to mention full time) at that sort of level in Falkirk and Partick Thistle.


 

Would say that the lack of big names at Cove is more down to them being a part time club based in Aberdeen though?I think if they were based more centrally you’d see bigger names signing, going by the money they (allegedly) pay.
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1 hour ago, Ludo*1 said:

Yep. Really bizarre what went on there. At Dundee, his biggest thing going for him was his work ethic. He'd be at pretty much every football game possible scouting for players or scouting the opposition. He wouldn't leave Dens until late at night and be the first one in, in the morning. Then he joins Falkirk and brings in some good quality players to dig them out of a relegation battle such as Andrew Nelson, Alex Jakubiak and Sean Welsh.

Over the pre-season, Falkirk scraps their youth system and Hartley has some English scout take over total control of the signing policy and the squad is filled with players like the Chelsea U23 captain etc and they're just utter shite and Hartley had never watched them play. Some conspiracy theories that it was a boardroom decision to have someone else in charge of the signings, but either way, really bizarre what went on that summer as it flew in the face of what Hartley's supposed strength in management is which is his work ethic.

He was manager from February of 2014 and signed zero players. He didn't rate the squad, even said that we'd finish 3rd based on the squad's ability in a neutral interview whilst still manager of Alloa about a month before when he was asked to predict the finish to the season. John Brown had just quit as we slipped to 2nd in the league (on GD) with him publicly stating that he didn't believe he'd be able to get us up. Hartley came in, didn't sign a single player and won us the league. Budget backing had nothing to do with that. If anything, Hartley had to clear the decks as we had some amount of complete jobbers like Stephen Hughes, Adam Cummins, Carlo Monti, Sean Bonnet Johnson & Steven Doris on the books when he joined.

You say it went from 'bad' to 'worse' when we lost Hemmings & Stewart. Was that period bad? Finishing 8th in the top flight? Yeah, with those 2 we perhaps underperformed, but I'd bite your hand off for that level of underperformance watching the likes of those light up Dens as we finish 8th in the top flight. I don't think any of our managers since Jocky the 2nd time round has done something of that ilk and even then, Jocky did it in a much less entertaining way.

I agree, he did lose his way in his final season, but taking 41 goals out of a side(GGH, Stewart & Hemmings) that scored 53 goals in the league season 2 weeks before the next season starts and tell me a manager that wouldn't have lost his way. Tell me any team in Scotland, and I'd include either side of the OF, where you can take 3 talents that are that important to the side away from the club that close to the season start and have it not be a disaster. He signed Marcus Haber who ultimately went a long, long way to keeping us up in order for us to rebuild and whilst El Bak was ultimately a flop, he was the fan chosen replacement for Stewart after he'd ripped the league to shreds for Dunfermline the season before and was very much seen as a massive coup for us at the time. Who could have predicted he'd turn to shite? Not many at the time!

At Cove he does have decent financial backing, but not to the extent that's made out. His 'big money signings' include Fraser Fyvie who couldn't win a deal at us or a few other Championship clubs after being on trial and Rory McAllister who left Peterhead to join but is now 33. Cove are also still part-time competing against 2 massive clubs (and not to mention full time) at that sort of level in Falkirk and Partick Thistle.

Finally, the last point doesn't make sense. I fully agree he deserved to be punted when he did but to say because Hamilton beat us in a one off game means he's poorer than Martin Canning is just bizarre. He outperformed Alex Neil pretty convincingly in the games against each other, how does that fit in to that narrative?

 

I’m not trying to say Canning was a better manager.  It was to illustrate just how muddled Hartley’s thinking had become. 

The point I was making was simply that he admitted himself he didn’t have a clue how to get a result out of his team as he had tried everything (over the season).  Remember Hamilton dominated that game at Dens.

It’s also something of a euphemism to say Hartley lost his way in the last season.  He absolutely imploded in more ways than one.

Each to their own though.  I know you are very loyal to managers and there is nothing wrong with that.....most of the time 😉

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15 minutes ago, RossBFaeDundee said:

As for the Ayr debacle, I don't think that was near the same, it was just the first real indication that we were a shockingly shite team.

Ooft, get a load of that line-up.

image.png.968f1a0392588f828e76e0b5c00ca847.png

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22 minutes ago, RossBFaeDundee said:

Ooft, get a load of that line-up.

image.png.968f1a0392588f828e76e0b5c00ca847.png

I'd have:

Ralph,  Madianga,  Parish, Caulker, Kamara, Curran and either of Moussa/Kallman.

To put that into context:

Ralph is better than Marshall for me (and I really like Marshall).

Madianga was quality IMO.

Parish to fill the bench next season.

Kamara is one of the best players in Scotland these days.

Caulker is well above any of our CHs.

Moussa is a joke figure, but he'd provide more for us in the role we want Sow to play. As would Kallman IMO.

I'd also have Kusunga or Meekings ahead of Fontaine. Curran is better than McDaid as well.

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That seems more that you have a differing philosophy on football than anything else and in some cases I agree wholeheartedly and in others I don't. He based his teams on a more attacking form of defence whilst you take the more traditional view of things. I reckon our team was a hard b*****d type in midfield away from being a very successful team at it's peak and that I do agree on, the midfield needed addressing and balancing.
I think that Rangers game we went in with the attitude that we'd walk right over them (as we did a season or 2 later with O'Hara putting them to the sword a few times) and were punished by a team that had its first chance to try and prove they were Rangers of old. We were always in trouble that game but things might have been different if we'd held our nerve past the opening minute!
I'd love the level of groundhog day that we had under Hartley compared to absolutely anything else we've had since the Bonetti era back in 2001 tbh.

Right - I’m in. I’ll phone Ramsay and get him to deliver a skip up to Dens for him to live in - you nip up to Cove and get the deal done. Canny wait.

That McCann team. Caulker on the bench while utter dug meat like Meekings were on the park. Kamara on the bench and Spence playing - was he on magic mushies ffs.
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5 minutes ago, Fifespud said:


Right - I’m in. I’ll phone Ramsay and get him to deliver a skip up to Dens for him to live in - you nip up to Cove and get the deal done. Canny wait.

That McCann team. Caulker on the bench while utter dug meat like Meekings were on the park. Kamara on the bench and Spence playing - was he on magic mushies ffs.

:lol:

Again, I think it's the misguided arrogance that @Mr. Alli refers to thinking we could pap out an Ayr side that were flying whilst we 'rest' our key players!

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There's a niggling thing in the back of my mind that this was just after Caulker wrecked his hotel. 

Caulker wrecked his hotel room? How does so much shit happen and I don’t know???
What’s the script here Mr Alli?
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