All things Dundee FC

[DigOutYourSoul]

I can't see much more than newspaper rumour in this one, especially the quoted fee. 

Standard headline writing practice: Dundee draw Ayr in cup >  Dundee need striker > Dundee cup opponents main striker scored goals last season = Dundee want to sign Ayr striker.

If the fee took the 0 off the end then he'd be more than worth a go, but in reality he failed at Morton and St.Mirren and scored goals in League 1. He's clearly talented and is a McCann type signing, but I can't see it as much more than a rumour. 

 

[DigOutYourSoul]

On another note:

Verging on some serious heads gones on TDB forum.

I'm glad most on here are fairly reasonable. 

Edited August 2, 2018 by DigOutYourSoul

[harry94]

1 hour ago, itzdrk said:

He wasn't out of contract so no. 

Your own website:

Quote

Ian McCall added Shankland to his squad in September 2017,

Having tried to sign Lawrence on loan the previous season, McCall’s persistence has paid off with the Glasgow-born striker starting his career at Somerset Park in superb goalscoring form, earning him November’s League 1 Player of the Month and a extended deal until the end of the season. 

1

So any club could have signed him going into pre-season with a compensation amounting to a year's training compensation of €10k.

Edited August 2, 2018 by harry94
formatting messed up but you see what I'm highlighting

[Moo]

I think he’s too much of a gamble tbh. He’s hardly scored in the championship so what makes us think he’ll score regularly in the premiership? I doubt Ayr would let him go anyway as he seems to be their only way of staying up at the minute.

[Dee Man]

Tell Ayr we'll give them £50k but we'll give them another £200k if he scores 25+. Then don't play him again as soon as he scores 24.

 

[capt_oats]

22 hours ago, Yenitit said:

Why are we as club struggling so badly to find a goalscorer. Clubs like Motherwell manage it easy enough. We’d be a pretty decent team in Scotland if we had Curtis Main and Ryan Bowman in our side. 

The lack of out and out wingers is bizarre as well given that’s what our manager was. 

FWIW: I think you're maybe oversimplifying it a bit in as far as how easy it is. While it's absolutely about good scouting, which in itself is a skill as far as knowing exactly what attributes you need from a player, there's more than a small element of hit and miss.

It's absolutely fair to say we've got a decent record with bringing in strikers; Main (10 in 24), Moult (50 in 98), McDonald (75 in 219), Sutton (78 in 209), Higdon (43 in 83), Porter (27 in 67), Jutkiewicz (12 in 36), Blackman (10 in 22). In the time I've been watching Motherwell you could probably go as far back as Coyne and Arnott picking out Motherwell strikers who've got goals on a reasonably consistent basis in each era.

The part that's naturally overlooked is that while we've consistently been able to happen upon a goalscorer who gets the headlines (Moult being the most obvious one recently) we've also gone through our fair share of strikers/forwards that just haven't worked out or have just been straight up huddies; Alex Fisher, Deimantas Petravicius, Jacob Blyth, Wes Fletcher, Luka Belic, Francis Jeffers, Esteban Casagolda, Cillian Sheridan, Lewis Grabban...that's a grand total of 5 goals there I think.

Ironically Grabban's since moved for £8m and finished runner up in the EFL Championship Golden Boot last season but scored 0 for us and couldn't get in the team. Wes Fletcher was originally ahead of Moult when he was brought in and got the #9 shirt and was last seen playing for The New Saints.

Bowman's someone who's pretty well liked by Motherwell fans but even as he goes in to his 3rd season at the club the jury's still probably out as to whether he's actually been a 'success' or not. 9 goals in 52 league games isn't exactly prolific but then again he plays the role of a foil pretty well.

From Dundee's POV you obviously had Hemmings recently but IIRC there was a situation where Hartley was insistent that he wouldn't be sold (I'm not sure if he said the same about Stewart) then had the rug pulled out from underneath him when it turned out there was a release clause and he was sold leaving Hartley scrambling around until he picked up Haber in October. Obviously I don't know whether it was the case that Hartley genuinely thought Hemmings wasn't going anywhere and was blindsided but I'd say that succession planning and proactiveness is one of the key elements with recruitment these days.

The fact that you've since replaced Hartley with an inexperienced manager who's trying to place his own stamp on the team can't really have helped much in that respect either.

While flexing publicly and saying "Player X isn't going anywhere" plays well with a fanbase (until they're actually sold) any manager should be making sure he's got a number of alternative options. To use us as an example again, we gave ourselves (at least) 6 months to scout a replacement for Moult after we kb'd Aberdeen's offer last summer (and still ended up getting more for him than Aberdeen offered) and ended up with Main. We knocked back Celtic when they enquired about Carson and have since brought in Gillespie who seems like a potential replacement who's getting bedded in at the club so we're not in a similar position as we were in January. I might be miles out but right now it feels like we go into each transfer window with a good idea of viable, scouted options to replace anyone we might sell on.

I wouldn't necessarily expect Dundee to kb £1.5m for Hendry but leaving it until the last 10 mins of the window (and losing Scott Allan as part of the deal) seemed, from the outside, to leave you in a position where McCann/the club were being forced into being reactive. Then again you brought in Caulker off the back of it so maybe there was a bit more planning than I'm giving credit for. 

Edited August 2, 2018 by capt_oats

[DigOutYourSoul]

7 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

FWIW: I think you're maybe oversimplifying it a bit in as far as how easy it is. While it's absolutely about good scouting, which in itself is a skill as far as knowing exactly what attributes you need from a player, there's more than a small element of hit and miss.

It's absolutely fair to say we've got a decent record with bringing in strikers; Main (10 in 24), Moult (50 in 98), McDonald (75 in 219), Sutton (78 in 209), Higdon (43 in 83), Porter (27 in 67), Jutkiewicz (12 in 36), Blackman (10 in 22). In the time I've been watching Motherwell you could probably go as far back as Coyne and Arnott picking out Motherwell strikers who've got goals on a reasonably consistent basis in each era.

The part that's naturally overlooked is that while we've consistently been able to happen upon a goalscorer who gets the headlines (Moult being the most obvious one recently) we've also gone through our fair share of strikers/forwards that just haven't worked out or have just been straight up huddies; Alex Fisher, Deimantas Petravicius, Jacob Blyth, Wes Fletcher, Luka Belic, Francis Jeffers, Esteban Casagolda, Cillian Sheridan, Lewis Grabban...that's a grand total of 5 goals there I think.

Ironically Grabban's since moved for £8m and finished runner up in the EFL Championship Golden Boot last season but scored 0 for us and couldn't get in the team. Wes Fletcher was originally ahead of Moult when he was brought in and got the #9 shirt and was last seen playing for The New Saints.

Bowman's someone who's pretty well liked by Motherwell fans but even as he goes in to his 3rd season at the club the jury's still probably out as to whether he's actually been a 'success' or not. 9 goals in 52 league games isn't exactly prolific but then again he plays the role of a foil pretty well.

From Dundee's POV you obviously had Hemmings recently but IIRC there was a situation where Hartley was insistent that he wouldn't be sold (I'm not sure if he said the same about Stewart) then had the rug pulled out from underneath him when it turned out there was a release clause and he was sold leaving Hartley scrambling around until he picked up Haber in October. Obviously I don't know whether it was the case that Hartley genuinely thought Hemmings wasn't going anywhere and was blindsided but I'd say that succession planning and proactiveness is one of the key elements with recruitment these days.

The fact that you've since replaced Hartley with an inexperienced manager who's trying to place his own stamp on the team can't really have helped much in that respect either.

While flexing publicly and saying "Player X isn't going anywhere" plays well with a fanbase (until they're actually sold) any manager should be making sure he's got a number of alternative options. To use us as an example again, we gave ourselves (at least) 6 months to scout a replacement for Moult after we kb'd Aberdeen's offer last summer (and still ended up getting more for him than Aberdeen offered) and ended up with Main. We knocked back Celtic when they enquired about Carson and have since brought in Gillespie who seems like a potential replacement who's getting bedded in at the club so we're not in a similar position as we were in January. I might be miles out but right now it feels like we go into each transfer window with a good idea of viable, scouted options to replace anyone we might sell on.

I wouldn't necessarily expect Dundee to kb £1.5m for Hendry but leaving it until the last 10 mins of the window (and losing Scott Allan as part of the deal) seemed, from the outside, to leave you in a position where McCann/the club were being forced into being reactive. Then again you brought in Caulker off the back of it so maybe there was a bit more planning than I'm giving credit for. 

Great post, and a great point about Bowman. 

He's used sometime by fans, not necessarily on here, as exactly the type of player we should be looking at ahead of the much maligned Moussa. (Although the post you quoted essentially makes that claim). Yet he has scored 2 more league goals in almost double the game time. 

Succession planning is key for me, you hit the nail on the head there. It seems like it's starting to get better but, having cleared probably not far off £500,000 from the wage bill this summer. The next couple of weeks are vital in regards of getting a couple of bodies in.

[Shadow Play]

12 minutes ago, DigOutYourSoul said:

Great post, and a great point about Bowman. 

He's used sometime by fans, not necessarily on here, as exactly the type of player we should be looking at ahead of the much maligned Moussa. (Although the post you quoted essentially makes that claim). Yet he has scored 2 more league goals in almost double the game time. 

Succession planning is key for me, you hit the nail on the head there. It seems like it's starting to get better but, having cleared probably not far off £500,000 from the wage bill this summer. The next couple of weeks are vital in regards of getting a couple of bodies in.

Although  El Bak, Vincent and Haber are our on loan how much of their wages are Dundee still paying?

[rodallegabombs]

Although  El Bak, Vincent and Haber are our on loan how much of their wages are Dundee still paying?

I don’t have any inside knowledge, I just speculate like anyone else but I would imagine that the loan deals will be fee based ie. the receiving club will pay a set fee for the players service. That will of course be based on how they and we both value the player... it could be as low as 5-10k if we aren’t being clever or as much as 50k if we’ve done well.
I don’t think they are really done as percentage of wage anymore. Although it could be expressed as that - I think if we are getting anywhere near 50% of a wage covered we are doing well.

[Shadow Play]

7 minutes ago, rodallegabombs said:

 

I don’t have any inside knowledge, I just speculate like anyone else but I would imagine that the loan deals will be fee based ie. the receiving club will pay a set fee for the players service. That will of course be based on how they and we both value the player... it could be as low as 5-10k if we aren’t being clever or as much as 50k if we’ve done well.
I don’t think they are really done as percentage of wage anymore. Although it could be expressed as that - I think if we are getting anywhere near 50% of a wage covered we are doing well.

 

I’d agree with that.  I don’t think anyone would dispute they were on big wages by Dundee’s standards. 

I’d also imagine Hately and Williams wouldn’t have simply walked away from their contracts without negotiating a good pay off.  

Amazing how these 5 poor signings can still effect the budget the current manager has to play with. 

[Dee Bliss]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

FWIW: I think you're maybe oversimplifying it a bit in as far as how easy it is. While it's absolutely about good scouting, which in itself is a skill as far as knowing exactly what attributes you need from a player, there's more than a small element of hit and miss.

It's absolutely fair to say we've got a decent record with bringing in strikers; Main (10 in 24), Moult (50 in 98), McDonald (75 in 219), Sutton (78 in 209), Higdon (43 in 83), Porter (27 in 67), Jutkiewicz (12 in 36), Blackman (10 in 22). In the time I've been watching Motherwell you could probably go as far back as Coyne and Arnott picking out Motherwell strikers who've got goals on a reasonably consistent basis in each era.

The part that's naturally overlooked is that while we've consistently been able to happen upon a goalscorer who gets the headlines (Moult being the most obvious one recently) we've also gone through our fair share of strikers/forwards that just haven't worked out or have just been straight up huddies; Alex Fisher, Deimantas Petravicius, Jacob Blyth, Wes Fletcher, Luka Belic, Francis Jeffers, Esteban Casagolda, Cillian Sheridan, Lewis Grabban...that's a grand total of 5 goals there I think.

Ironically Grabban's since moved for £8m and finished runner up in the EFL Championship Golden Boot last season but scored 0 for us and couldn't get in the team. Wes Fletcher was originally ahead of Moult when he was brought in and got the #9 shirt and was last seen playing for The New Saints.

Bowman's someone who's pretty well liked by Motherwell fans but even as he goes in to his 3rd season at the club the jury's still probably out as to whether he's actually been a 'success' or not. 9 goals in 52 league games isn't exactly prolific but then again he plays the role of a foil pretty well.

From Dundee's POV you obviously had Hemmings recently but IIRC there was a situation where Hartley was insistent that he wouldn't be sold (I'm not sure if he said the same about Stewart) then had the rug pulled out from underneath him when it turned out there was a release clause and he was sold leaving Hartley scrambling around until he picked up Haber in October. Obviously I don't know whether it was the case that Hartley genuinely thought Hemmings wasn't going anywhere and was blindsided but I'd say that succession planning and proactiveness is one of the key elements with recruitment these days.

The fact that you've since replaced Hartley with an inexperienced manager who's trying to place his own stamp on the team can't really have helped much in that respect either.

While flexing publicly and saying "Player X isn't going anywhere" plays well with a fanbase (until they're actually sold) any manager should be making sure he's got a number of alternative options. To use us as an example again, we gave ourselves (at least) 6 months to scout a replacement for Moult after we kb'd Aberdeen's offer last summer (and still ended up getting more for him than Aberdeen offered) and ended up with Main. We knocked back Celtic when they enquired about Carson and have since brought in Gillespie who seems like a potential replacement who's getting bedded in at the club so we're not in a similar position as we were in January. I might be miles out but right now it feels like we go into each transfer window with a good idea of viable, scouted options to replace anyone we might sell on.

I wouldn't necessarily expect Dundee to kb £1.5m for Hendry but leaving it until the last 10 mins of the window (and losing Scott Allan as part of the deal) seemed, from the outside, to leave you in a position where McCann/the club were being forced into being reactive. Then again you brought in Caulker off the back of it so maybe there was a bit more planning than I'm giving credit for. 

You kind of backed up what I was saying. I think we’d all agree that Kamara and Caulker will be the next out the door so I’d expect replacements are being lined up for them.  Then we have the issue that’s been apparent for a while where our forwards and left back aren’t good enough and this issue still hasn’t been addressed 48 hours before the league season kicks off.  The point being Motherwell always appear to have 1 guy in their team who bangs in the goals. The last 2 season’s for us has been pretty horrendous goalscorer wise, whilst Motherwell seamlessly replace Moult with Main as an example who looks to be a real find. 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Yenitit

[DigOutYourSoul]

Nabi incoming. 

[Ludo*1]

Nabi signs on a 6 month deal. Considering the length of his trial that's hardly unexpected. 

McCann still isn't fully convinced though evidently by only giving him a 6 month deal. Just how unfit is the lad. 

[RossBFaeDundee]

Hopefully this wee gamble pays off. Probably shuts down any Shankland debate tbh

[Meeniedee]

Welcome to dens Nabi....may I be the first to booooooooo you for the first chance missed 

[Ludo*1]

9 minutes ago, RossBFaeDundee said:

Hopefully this wee gamble pays off. Probably shuts down any Shankland debate tbh

Why? We've only got 2 strikers at the club. We desperately need another in. Can't see us signing Shankland but we do need another 1-2 strikers and cover at LB IMO. 

[Ludo*1]

Peterborough fans are fair biting to us signing Nabi. They didn't like him one bit. 

[DigOutYourSoul]

2 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

Why? We've only got 2 strikers at the club. We desperately need another in. Can't see us signing Shankland but we do need another 1-2 strikers and cover at LB IMO. 

As I said yesterday McCann clearly rates him and he's got good pedigree. We've not got a raft of creative midfielders -  compared to last season - Elton, Kharl and Nabi. 

I think another striker and a LB will come in before the end of the window but have no concerns with offering Nabi a 6 month deal. 

[rambling syd rumpo]

3 hours ago, harry94 said:

Your own website:

Ayr's website is out of date. Shankland's contract was up at the end of last season but he signed another for one year a couple of weeks into Ayr's close season, a few days after the Premiership season ended.

[harry94]

8 minutes ago, rambling syd rumpo said:

Ayr's website is out of date. Shankland's contract was up at the end of last season but he signed another for one year a couple of weeks into Ayr's close season, a few days after the Premiership season ended.

 

That's what I was saying - he was (well almost) completely free to go anywhere and join anyone for the start of this season.