All things Dundee FC

[dd23]

I really don’t think MOH is good enough for us. A one trick pony.
Anyone remember a game - Christ knows how long ago - we played an American team pre season. They had a lad on the wing, he was greased lightening. One of his team mates played a pass inside our full back that looked for all the world it was going out. The winger put on the burners, unbelievable pace, and got to it. Were fucked I thought. His second touch, he stood on the ball and clattered into the photographers.

That is MOH.

I remember Colin Pish when he was at Dens getting the ball played in to his feet, attempting to control it , doing the full baby giraffe samba and falling flat on his arse.

He immediately of course claimed for the foul, realising as he did that there was nobody else within 15 yards.

I could have done that.

[RandomGuy.]

9 minutes ago, Girth said:

Is there an obscure French version of O’Halloran? If so, we’ll take him.

Thank you.

Romain Habran

[RossDee01]

Romain Habran

[emoji404]? #thedee

[Fifespud]

Anyway, no Sainties at Dens, thank you.

[Shadow Play]

9 hours ago, RossDee01 said:

This is a bit random and off topic, but after reading various fans forums such as Woking etc. it's absolutely staggering that so many of them seem to think the Scottish Premiership is a lower level than the Conference down there.

It's all down to c***s like Charlie Nicholas constantly talking our game down.

.....and teams like Hamilton with their style of play.

[coprolite]

10 hours ago, RossDee01 said:

This is a bit random and off topic, but after reading various fans forums such as Woking etc. it's absolutely staggering that so many of them seem to think the Scottish Premiership is a lower level than the Conference down there.

It's all down to c***s like Charlie Nicholas constantly talking our game down.

And down to c***s like Dundee signing mediocre players from them.

[capt_oats]

10 hours ago, RossDee01 said:

This is a bit random and off topic, but after reading various fans forums such as Woking etc. it's absolutely staggering that so many of them seem to think the Scottish Premiership is a lower level than the Conference down there.

It's all down to c***s like Charlie Nicholas constantly talking our game down.

It's a proper Brexit mentality.

The logic seems to be that because you've got clubs picking up some players from the National League then there's equivalence. Which is clearly nuts. To follow the same train of thought "the best league in the world" is on par with the Conference because Vardy's done alright.

Having said that, it's not just folk like Nicholas talking the game down. I had a browse on the "Nathan Ralph" thread on TDB forum yesterday and you had a boy there making the bold claim that Yeovil and Kettering players "are the equal to anything we have in the premier league."

I mean...fucking hell.

Edited June 2, 2018 by capt_oats

[hk blues]

23 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Having said that, it's not even just folk like Nicholas talking the game down. I had a browse on the "Nathan Ralph" thread on TDB forum yesterday and you had a boy there making the bold claim that "Yeovil and Kettering are the equal to anything we have in the premier league."

I mean...fucking hell.

To be fair to the poster on TDB, what he said was  - " Yeovil and Kettering players are the equal of anything the SPL has."  Not quite the same thing.

[capt_oats]

22 hours ago, hk blues said:

To be fair to the poster on TDB, what he said was  - " Yeovil and Kettering players are the equal of anything the SPL has."  Not quite the same thing.

Yeah, I'd already edited my post to reflect that before you replied. Cheers though.

Either way based on what he actually said the guy's comment completely ignores that there's a clear gulf in quality between that level of football and our Premiership. Off the top of my head we released Craig Clay from a 2 year deal because he wasn't good enough, Hearts binned Cole Stockton, Inih Effiong lasted 2 games at County after he signed from Woking and from what I've read on here the jury still seems to be out on Roarie Deacon after a full season at Dens.

There are probably as many, if not more, examples of players who have been signed from non-league in England who have struggled as there are who have been stand outs. Which doesn't really square with the comment your man made or what he's inferring.

We (Motherwell) had become something of the poster boys for recruiting from the non-league market but it's telling that none of our signings last summer were from that level.

Since the 2014/15 season we've signed 8 players from non-league in England:

Josh Law - Alfreton Town (released to Oldham Athletic)
Marvin Johnson - Kidderminster Harriers (sold to Oxford United £650k plus % of £2.5m to Middlesboro)
Louis Moult - Wrexham (sold to Preston North End £500k)
Ben Heneghan - Chester (sold to Sheffield United £300k)
Richard Tait - still at club. Extended to 2020.
Craig Clay - released summer 2017/18
Ryan Bowman - still at club. Extended to 2019
Elliot Frear - still at club

We obviously had success with Moult and Johnson but even in Moult's case it took him a while to adjust and make the step up and the player we sold 50 goals later for half a million absolutely wasn't the player who arrived. Heneghan struggled for large parts of his season here (not helped by playing in a defence with Craig fucking Samson behind him I'll grant you) but we 100% won a watch with United wanting to pay us cash for him. 

Of the 3 who are still at the club only Tait is an undisputed first pick and it took him a full season to adjust. The season he arrived he was getting utterly reamed by Jonny Hayes and Scott Sinclair. While he may have ended the season our top scorer at the club Bowman's our 3rd (possibly 4th) choice striker and Frear spent most of the season on the bench with Tait playing ahead of him at LWB.

Contrary to belief Carson's never played non-league. He signed for us after Hartlepool had been relegated. He never played for them at National League level.

So, to follow your TDB guy's logic Kettering and Yeovil-level players should be swanning up here and seamlessly fitting in. To use us as an example, that's not the case. In fact, quite the opposite, Motherwell released Alex Fisher from a 2 year deal to sign for Yeovil having scored 0 in 19 appearances. He's scored 6 in 19 for them in League 2 since his move.

Some have worked out, some haven't. However you can say that of any recruitment in general. As has often been pointed out Joey Barton was named in the Championship team of the year prior to signing at Ibrox while Bruno Alves is going to the World Cup both were made to look like absolute huddies by bottom 6 sides during their time at Rangers.

There are individuals who can move from National League level and stand out but they're the exceptions rather than the rule. It's also down to scouting and good recruitment rather than it simply being a case of the two leagues being a comparable level. 

To broadly say that Yeovil and Kettering players are the equal of anything the SPL (sic) has just doesn't fly IMO. Yes, there will be players at that level who "could do a job" but that doesn't make the two leagues comparable.

FWIW: absolutely none of that is comment on Nathan Ralph. For all I know he may well be the next Ashley Cole but I'm very much in agreement with RossDee01's point that it's an absolute fucking nonsense the number of fans of clubs down there who seem to think that the Premiership is a lower level than the fucking National League.

As I said, it's a properly Brexit mentality.

Edited June 3, 2018 by capt_oats

[Dee Bliss]

I only had a quick read of TDB but was the guy not comparing the attendances at those clubs compared to the club’s up here outside Celtic, Rangers, Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen? I might be thinking of a different topic. 

I’d imagine undoubtedly there will be players from that league that will easily fit into our league but not too many. Just hope we’ve cherry picked the right ones. 

The papers have got our last 2 signings correct so there might be some truth in the striker from Leyton Orient on our radar making that 3 players from that level.

Having seen the absolute drivel Yenited have signed on 2 & 3 year deals from up here I’m quite happy to take a punt on unknowns from down south just not too many. I’d be suicidal signing the boy Curran on a 3 year deal. 

[capt_oats]

44 minutes ago, Yenitit said:

I only had a quick read of TDB but was the guy not comparing the attendances at those clubs compared to the club’s up here outside Celtic, Rangers, Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen? I might be thinking of a different topic. 

Nah, same topic but different part of the conversation. That point about the attendances is definitely covered but it's a different poster who raises that.

The full post I lifted the quote from is:

Quote

He looks good to me.I watched a lot of Yeovil and Kettering and their players are the equal of anything we have in the premier league

A close season training and we will see what the guy can do.

I just don't buy into the statement that Yeovil and Kettering players are the equal of anything we have in the Premiership.

It's an interesting thread though, especially reading it as an outsider because it actually echoes a lot of the points I've seen raised on Motherwell threads over the past few summers.

You've got Dees there who clearly just want to be positive about new signings and there's those on the thread who are a bit more circumspect.

There's absolutely no harm in that discussion but for me I'd say that any player who's making a move from that level to our league needs to make pretty significant improvements to even come close to cutting it.

It's a pretty big step largely because there's a huge gulf in our league itself. You're not playing against 11 variations of Accies. One week you're playing someone like Livi the next you've got legit internationals in a Celtic side.

I'll not pretend I sit watching the National League or League 2 that much but I'd hazard a guess that players don't have don't have to deal with that sort of wild upscale in opposition week on week.

Edited June 2, 2018 by capt_oats

[Dee Bliss]

5 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Nah, same topic but different part of the conversation. That point about the attendances is definitely covered but it's a different poster who raises that.

The full post I lifted the quote from is:

I just don't buy into the statement that Yeovil and Kettering players are the equal of anything we have in the Premiership.

It's an interesting thread though, especially reading it as an outsider because it actually echoes a lot of the points I've seen raised on Motherwell threads over the past few summers.

You've got Dees there who clearly just want to be positive about new signings and there's those on the thread who are a bit more circumspect.

There's absolutely no harm in that discussion but for me I'd say that any player who's making a move from that level to our league needs to make pretty significant improvements to even come close to cutting it.

It's a pretty big step largely because there's a huge gulf in our league itself. You're not playing against 11 variations of Accies. One week you're playing someone like Livi the next you've got legit internationals in a Celtic side.

I'll not pretend I sit watching the National League or League 2 that much but I'd hazard a guess that players don't have don't have to deal with that sort of wild upscale in opposition week on week.

I’d still say there will be a player from most sides who could play up here, it’s picking the right ones. 

[capt_oats]

7 minutes ago, Yenitit said:

I’d still say there will be a player from most sides who could play up here, it’s picking the right ones. 

Don't disagree with that. It's 100% about scouting and picking up the right ones.

It's the generalisation of the guy's point that I take issue with and to feed it back to RossDee01's original point, the inference that there's equivalence between the two leagues or that the Premiership is a lower standard.

Edited June 2, 2018 by capt_oats

[Moo]

Every player in the conference is at a win-win coming up here to play as a) more exposure being on tv b) more money c) playing at a higher level d) playing at bigger grounds e) bigger crowds.

Scottish Premiership pisses all over the conference and pisses over that tin pot league 2 as well.

[K.T]

Every player in the conference is at a win-win coming up here to play as a) more exposure being on tv b) more money c) playing at a higher level d) playing at bigger grounds e) bigger crowds.

Scottish Premiership pisses all over the conference and pisses over that tin pot league 2 as well.

I’d go one further and say it pisses over the entirety of English football, especially the EPL. Football for tourists.

[Jimmy Baker]

10 hours ago, capt_oats said:

......... what I've read on here the jury still seems to be out on Roarie Deacon after a full season at Dens..... 

I did a double check when reading this whole post because it was too sensible and well written for P&B. I'd thoroughly agree with the sentiments regarding Roarie Deacon. He  started off his career in the SPFL showing mild promise and ended up the season being decidedly mediocre. I can't think of a single fixture after which I came away thinking  that he was above average. Considering that he arrived here after standing out in the cup game against Arsenal I was expecting a bit more. I don't know what his stats are but I don't think that in terms of goals created or scored they would be even slightly impressive. There are obviously the odd gem to be found in the English lower reaches but by the same token there must be a huge amount of trash as well

[Fifespud]

I did a double check when reading this whole post because it was too sensible and well written for P&B. I'd thoroughly agree with the sentiments regarding Roarie Deacon. He  started off his career in the SPFL showing mild promise and ended up the season being decidedly mediocre. I can't think of a single fixture after which I came away thinking  that he was above average. Considering that he arrived here after standing out in the cup game against Arsenal I was expecting a bit more. I don't know what his stats are but I don't think that in terms of goals created or scored they would be even slightly impressive. There are obviously the odd gem to be found in the English lower reaches but by the same token there must be a huge amount of trash as well

Hard to disagree with your assessment of Deacon. The only positive is he’s better than Randy.

[Aidan]

I did a double check when reading this whole post because it was too sensible and well written for P&B. I'd thoroughly agree with the sentiments regarding Roarie Deacon. He  started off his career in the SPFL showing mild promise and ended up the season being decidedly mediocre. I can't think of a single fixture after which I came away thinking  that he was above average. Considering that he arrived here after standing out in the cup game against Arsenal I was expecting a bit more. I don't know what his stats are but I don't think that in terms of goals created or scored they would be even slightly impressive. There are obviously the odd gem to be found in the English lower reaches but by the same token there must be a huge amount of trash as well

I posted it on here before but can't be arsed looking back through to find it. Deacon was in the top 10 for expected goals created per 90 up until the middle of March, no idea where he would be now but it's probably still quite decent.

[RandomGuy.]

6 hours ago, Aidan said:

7 hours ago, Jimmy Baker said:

I did a double check when reading this whole post because it was too sensible and well written for P&B. I'd thoroughly agree with the sentiments regarding Roarie Deacon. He  started off his career in the SPFL showing mild promise and ended up the season being decidedly mediocre. I can't think of a single fixture after which I came away thinking  that he was above average. Considering that he arrived here after standing out in the cup game against Arsenal I was expecting a bit more. I don't know what his stats are but I don't think that in terms of goals created or scored they would be even slightly impressive. There are obviously the odd gem to be found in the English lower reaches but by the same token there must be a huge amount of trash as well

I posted it on here before but can't be arsed looking back through to find it. Deacon was in the top 10 for expected goals created per 90 up until the middle of March, no idea where he would be now but it's probably still quite decent.

He finished the season in the top ten. The Modern Fitba twitter page (@ModernFitba) had a map up of the most common position that the top ten xA leaders assisted from. 

Deacons was interesting, as even though he's a winger, he's more likely to assist from a central position. 

[johnnydun]

9 hours ago, Fifespud said:

 

Hard to disagree with your assessment of Deacon. The only positive is he’s better than Randy.

 

Horny?