The Arbroath Thread

[D'Jaffo]

For younger players I don’t doubt the majority do prefer it. But only recently has PT become as professional it is at the moment so give it another 10 years and see what happens. For guys mid to late 20s and early 30s part time has all sorts of advantages over playing for a lower FT club. Being able to build a career away from football to help when they’ve retired whilst also being paid a lot more money combining two jobs. Just depends on the individual. 
 
Be interesting to see what happens to be honest. 

You’re saying there about PT becoming much more professional but I’d argue that only applies to a couple of clubs. It’s certainly the case with yourselves and until this season I’d have said the same of Alloa but for the vast majority of PT clubs they aren’t really run in the professional manner that you speak of.

I do agree though that greater care needs to be taken from the clubs point of view to ensure that young players turning FT are aware of the consequences of their decision. I remember Ryan Stevenson accusing Ian McCall of neglect when he persuaded Craig McGuffie to drop out of uni to sign a FT contract with us when it might’ve been more beneficial for the guy to stay PT for a year or two and finish his degree. McGuffie is now playing for Falkirk in League One and will most likely be playing PT next season after not having much of an impact. I’ve no idea if he ever finished his degree but given it never really worked out for him at Ayr and then Morton and now potentially Falkirk it’s worth asking is it a risk some guys should be taking?

[CALDERON]

It's a fine balance.  Arbroath are where they are as they have am excellent management team and recruit excellently.  The fact they are part time, is incidental.  Good players are good players and good managers are good managers.  Campbell is bigging up the part time thing a fair bit, but I'd be a bit cheesed off if I was an Arbroath fan.  Arbroath are not a plucky wee underdog,  they are where they are on merit.

A balanced approach I'd probably best.  Talented young players are likely to want a career in football,  so being full time works for them.  Arbroath also benefit from talented youngsters, but largely full time players from other clubs.  If, God forbid, the colt teams issue gets bigger- they'd lose a bit of that.

Being part time also gives a bit of a ceiling to what a club can achieve.  Raith, for example, have ambitions to reach the Premiership.  Whilst being PT doesn't mean we wouldn't make it there, it would make it impossible to stay there for any length of time.

That said, spend what you can afford in the most effective way possible.

[1320Lichtie]

19 minutes ago, CALDERON said:

It's a fine balance.  Arbroath are where they are as they have am excellent management team and recruit excellently.  The fact they are part time, is incidental.  Good players are good players and good managers are good managers.  Campbell is bigging up the part time thing a fair bit, but I'd be a bit cheesed off if I was an Arbroath fan.  Arbroath are not a plucky wee underdog,  they are where they are on merit.

A balanced approach I'd probably best.  Talented young players are likely to want a career in football,  so being full time works for them.  Arbroath also benefit from talented youngsters, but largely full time players from other clubs.  If, God forbid, the colt teams issue gets bigger- they'd lose a bit of that.

Being part time also gives a bit of a ceiling to what a club can achieve.  Raith, for example, have ambitions to reach the Premiership.  Whilst being PT doesn't mean we wouldn't make it there, it would make it impossible to stay there for any length of time.

That said, spend what you can afford in the most effective way possible.

Aye our ceiling is where we are now like and everyone realises that and is happy about it. Happy to be bottom of championship/ top end league 1. If we can sustain that I’ll be happy. The growth of the club especially off the park (in regards to basically everything but mainly season tickets / crowds / community trust / stadium improvements) has been huge recently so foundations are there for that. Trust the board to make good decisions too for whenever DC leaves.

[1320Lichtie]

8 hours ago, D'Jaffo said:

You’re saying there about PT becoming much more professional but I’d argue that only applies to a couple of clubs. It’s certainly the case with yourselves and until this season I’d have said the same of Alloa but for the vast majority of PT clubs they aren’t really run in the professional manner that you speak of.

I do agree though that greater care needs to be taken from the clubs point of view to ensure that young players turning FT are aware of the consequences of their decision. I remember Ryan Stevenson accusing Ian McCall of neglect when he persuaded Craig McGuffie to drop out of uni to sign a FT contract with us when it might’ve been more beneficial for the guy to stay PT for a year or two and finish his degree. McGuffie is now playing for Falkirk in League One and will most likely be playing PT next season after not having much of an impact. I’ve no idea if he ever finished his degree but given it never really worked out for him at Ayr and then Morton and now potentially Falkirk it’s worth asking is it a risk some guys should be taking?

I’m not sure. I think fitness levels especially are well up right across the board now even below L2 level In comparison to 10 year ago. Think the attitude to fitness and health has kind of changed overall in society too tbh. But yeah I think PT players look after themselves a whole lot more than they used to. Opening up the pyramid has helped too. More ambitious teams coming in raises the overall level

[Greenacres]

Arbroath budget is  much  the same  as   Queens.

Arbroath can get the best experienced part time players Queens can only get young inexperienced full time players we easly have the youngest squad in the Championship .

Queens should get back to part time I just do not see any advantage with us trying to stay full time 

 

 

[1320Lichtie]

54 minutes ago, Greenacres said:

Arbroath budget is  much  the same  as   Queens.

Arbroath can get the best experienced part time players Queens can only get young inexperienced full time players we easly have the youngest squad in the Championship .

Queens should get back to part time I just do not see any advantage with us trying to stay full time 

 

 

Qots kind of team I meant originally 

 

Good option for some clubs. Not great for others. If we were based in central belt even could maybe attempt an Airdrie/Livi/Hamilton type thing, Astro Park to train on every day in a great location, but were not, so suits us best

[Smokerson]

1 hour ago, Greenacres said:

Arbroath budget is  much  the same  as   Queens.

Arbroath can get the best experienced part time players Queens can only get young inexperienced full time players we easly have the youngest squad in the Championship .

Queens should get back to part time I just do not see any advantage with us trying to stay full time 

 

 

How do you know the budgets of both clubs? 

Agree, with 1320. We are almost at our ceiling, if we manage to finish top 4 (i still think it will be a tall order) then it would be an unbelievable achievement and beyond our wildest dreams as fans. I actually think we have a great deal of humility within the club from managers to players and board etc so we are under no illusions that our current success might not last forever.

[Greenacres]

15 minutes ago, Smokerson said:

How do you know the budgets of both clubs? 

Agree, with 1320. We are almost at our ceiling, if we manage to finish top 4 (i still think it will be a tall order) then it would be an unbelievable achievement and beyond our wildest dreams as fans. I actually think we have a great deal of humility within the club from managers to players and board etc so we are under no illusions that our current success might not last forever.

Alan Johnston said the last time we played Arbroath that the budgets were much the same .

Will see on Saturday again that it will be men v boys experience is so important in the Championship 

 

[craigkillie]

How would Allan Johnston know Arbroath's budget?

[19QOS19]

How do you know the budgets of both clubs? 
Agree, with 1320. We are almost at our ceiling, if we manage to finish top 4 (i still think it will be a tall order) then it would be an unbelievable achievement and beyond our wildest dreams as fans. I actually think we have a great deal of humility within the club from managers to players and board etc so we are under no illusions that our current success might not last forever.

How would Allan Johnston know Arbroath's budget?

He (the poster) knows nothing. He's a tedious troll who spouts the same pish every single week on our threads. Don't give him the time of day.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

How would Allan Johnston know Arbroath's budget?

 

1 hour ago, 19QOS19 said:

He (the poster) knows nothing. He's a tedious troll who spouts the same pish every single week on our threads. Don't give him the time of day.

Whilst this is certainly true and the artist formerly known as Northfield constantly spouts this sort of nonsense, it's also pretty naive to think that managers don't have at least a rough idea of the budgets of the other clubs in their division. They talk to one another, or to agents who talk to multiple clubs on behalf of their players, they are often in competition for signing the same players and even on occasion transferring / loaning players between each other. Allan Johnston will absolutely have a fair idea what Arbroath are paying players generally. As Dick Campbell will have a fair idea what we are paying.

[Skyline Drifter]

4 hours ago, CALDERON said:

Being part time also gives a bit of a ceiling to what a club can achieve.  Raith, for example, have ambitions to reach the Premiership.  Whilst being PT doesn't mean we wouldn't make it there, it would make it impossible to stay there for any length of time.

I'd argue in reality that being part time would make it very unlikely you'd stay in the Championship for any significant length of time, never mind Premiership. It would be nigh on impossible to reach the Premiership as a part time side currently and Arbroath's current campaign, even at this relatively early stage, is pretty much the first time anyone's even threatened it in the Playoff era. You'd need to go back to 70's when very few clubs were full time to find anyone actually achieving it. Dumbarton finished 5th in 13/14 and ran us reasonably close but it was a fairly unique year when Dunfermline and Rangers (and Ayr) were all in League 1 for financial reasons which meant there was more opportunity for part time sides. There were three part time sides in the Championship back then. Arbroath were also jiggery pokeried into 5th in the Covid stopped 19/20 season which stopped early.

Dumbarton's 6 years from 2012/13 to 2017/18 is the longest unbroken run an out and out part time side has survived at this level for in the last 20 years and again it was certainly helped by the financial shenanigans in Scottish football at the time which meant a number of sides , most obviously Rangers and Dunfermline, spent time outside the top two divisions but also the likes of Raith, Livingston and Morton (and ourselves for a year) did.

We were part time when promoted in 2002 but went semi full time in 2006/07 and pretty much fully full time from 2007/08 so probably about 5 years part time. We've spent one season outside the Championship since 2002 and relegation was caused by a financial collapse. Morton and Dunfermline, despite similar financial situations placing them below the Championship have also spent relatively few seasons out of it. The most seasons for a part time side in the 2nd level in the last two decades is Alloa's 7 which included three relegations. It's nigh on impossible for a part time side to get 'comfortable' in the 2nd level.

Arbroath's current achievements have been tremendous and, three seasons in, they are stronger than ever albeit the first two seasons were both Covid shortened. They owe much to outstanding management and largely keeping an experienced core of players together though. That can't go on for ever. They are already the oldest side in the division on average with a starting 11 averaging over 29 years old, more than a year older than the next oldest (Inverness). They've managed to assemble a terrific group of part timers who are amongst the best in their generation and keep hold of them due to clearly being the best part time side around at the moment and Dick has cleverly supplemented them with impressive full time loans that have worked well. But it's 3 seasons and the likes of Gaston, O'Brien, Little, etc won't go on for ever. They get older, they get less effective and it's harder to pull together the best part timers all the time, especially when Cove come up next year with probably a bigger budget unless they have plans to go full time. Arbroath are probably better than Dumbarton were half a decade ago but it will still be a terrific achievement if they are still plying their trade here in another 3 or 4 years whilst still part time.

Basically, a full time side has to have a significantly bad season to get themselves relegated out of this level at the moment and would be big favourites to come straight back (even if Falkirk are proving that's no formality). A part time side has to be the best part time club in the country all the time to stay here. That's a Hell of a task and the idea that Northfield peddles that it's easy to just pick up the best part timers  and be as good is nonsense, especially in an era with the pyramid opening up and clubs like Cove, Kelty, Darvel, etc throwing as much money around as any part time League side.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Skyline Drifter

[Its not only a game]

52 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I'd argue in reality that being part time would make it very unlikely you'd stay in the Championship for any significant length of time, never mind Premiership. It would be nigh on impossible to reach the Premiership as a part time side currently and Arbroath's current campaign, even at this relatively early stage, is pretty much the first time anyone's even threatened it in the Playoff era. You'd need to go back to 70's when very few clubs were full time to find anyone actually achieving it. Dumbarton finished 5th in 13/14 and ran us reasonably close but it was a fairly unique year when Dunfermline and Rangers (and Ayr) were all in League 1 for financial reasons which meant there was more opportunity for part time sides. There were three part time sides in the Championship back then. Arbroath were also jiggery pokeried into 5th in the Covid stopped 19/20 season which stopped early.

Dumbarton's 6 years from 2012/13 to 2017/18 is the longest unbroken run an out and out part time side has survived at this level for in the last 20 years and again it was certainly helped by the financial shenanigans in Scottish football at the time which meant a number of sides , most obviously Rangers and Dunfermline, spent time outside the top two divisions but also the likes of Raith, Livingston and Morton (and ourselves for a year) did.

We were part time when promoted in 2002 but went semi full time in 2006/07 and pretty much fully full time from 2007/08 so probably about 5 years part time. We've spent one season outside the Championship since 2002 and relegation was caused by a financial collapse. Morton and Dunfermline, despite similar financial situations placing them below the Championship have also spent relatively few seasons out of it. The most seasons for a part time side in the 2nd level in the last two decades is Alloa's 7 which included three relegations. It's nigh on impossible for a part time side to get 'comfortable' in the 2nd level.

Arbroath's current achievements have been tremendous and, three seasons in, they are stronger than ever albeit the first two seasons were both Covid shortened. They owe much to outstanding management and largely keeping an experienced core of players together though. That can't go on for ever. They are already the oldest side in the division on average with a starting 11 averaging over 29 years old, more than a year older than the next oldest (Inverness). They've managed to assemble a terrific group of part timers who are amongst the best in their generation and keep hold of them due to clearly being the best part time side around at the moment and Dick has cleverly supplemented them with impressive full time loans that have worked well. But it's 3 seasons and the likes of Gaston, O'Brien, Little, etc won't go on for ever. They get older, they get less effective and it's harder to pull together the best part timers all the time, especially when Cove come up next year with probably a bigger budget unless they have plans to go full time. Arbroath are probably better than Dumbarton were half a decade ago but it will still be a terrific achievement if they are still plying their trade here in another 3 or 4 years whilst still part time.

Basically, a full time side has to have a significantly bad season to get themselves relegated out of this level at the moment and would be big favourites to come straight back (even if Falkirk are proving that's no formality). A part time side has to be the best part time club in the country all the time to stay here. That's a Hell of a task and the idea that Northfield peddles that it's easy to just pick up the best part timers  and be as good is nonsense, especially in an era with the pyramid opening up and clubs like Cove, Kelty, Darvel, etc throwing as much money around as any part time League side.

All fair points, but the most important point being a truly outstanding management team who seemed to get supported by an excellent Board. You could easily argue they have the best back 4 in the Championship and I think 3 of them Played with them in league 2! Their ability to get the best out of players or improve them whether its a  PT player or loanees that have lost their way , is  remarkable. 
Wished it was us.

[1320Lichtie]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I'd argue in reality that being part time would make it very unlikely you'd stay in the Championship for any significant length of time, never mind Premiership. It would be nigh on impossible to reach the Premiership as a part time side currently and Arbroath's current campaign, even at this relatively early stage, is pretty much the first time anyone's even threatened it in the Playoff era. You'd need to go back to 70's when very few clubs were full time to find anyone actually achieving it. Dumbarton finished 5th in 13/14 and ran us reasonably close but it was a fairly unique year when Dunfermline and Rangers (and Ayr) were all in League 1 for financial reasons which meant there was more opportunity for part time sides. There were three part time sides in the Championship back then. Arbroath were also jiggery pokeried into 5th in the Covid stopped 19/20 season which stopped early.

Dumbarton's 6 years from 2012/13 to 2017/18 is the longest unbroken run an out and out part time side has survived at this level for in the last 20 years and again it was certainly helped by the financial shenanigans in Scottish football at the time which meant a number of sides , most obviously Rangers and Dunfermline, spent time outside the top two divisions but also the likes of Raith, Livingston and Morton (and ourselves for a year) did.

We were part time when promoted in 2002 but went semi full time in 2006/07 and pretty much fully full time from 2007/08 so probably about 5 years part time. We've spent one season outside the Championship since 2002 and relegation was caused by a financial collapse. Morton and Dunfermline, despite similar financial situations placing them below the Championship have also spent relatively few seasons out of it. The most seasons for a part time side in the 2nd level in the last two decades is Alloa's 7 which included three relegations. It's nigh on impossible for a part time side to get 'comfortable' in the 2nd level.

Arbroath's current achievements have been tremendous and, three seasons in, they are stronger than ever albeit the first two seasons were both Covid shortened. They owe much to outstanding management and largely keeping an experienced core of players together though. That can't go on for ever. They are already the oldest side in the division on average with a starting 11 averaging over 29 years old, more than a year older than the next oldest (Inverness). They've managed to assemble a terrific group of part timers who are amongst the best in their generation and keep hold of them due to clearly being the best part time side around at the moment and Dick has cleverly supplemented them with impressive full time loans that have worked well. But it's 3 seasons and the likes of Gaston, O'Brien, Little, etc won't go on for ever. They get older, they get less effective and it's harder to pull together the best part timers all the time, especially when Cove come up next year with probably a bigger budget unless they have plans to go full time. Arbroath are probably better than Dumbarton were half a decade ago but it will still be a terrific achievement if they are still plying their trade here in another 3 or 4 years whilst still part time.

Basically, a full time side has to have a significantly bad season to get themselves relegated out of this level at the moment and would be big favourites to come straight back (even if Falkirk are proving that's no formality). A part time side has to be the best part time club in the country all the time to stay here. That's a Hell of a task and the idea that Northfield peddles that it's easy to just pick up the best part timers  and be as good is nonsense, especially in an era with the pyramid opening up and clubs like Cove, Kelty, Darvel, etc throwing as much money around as any part time League side.

Again though, the games changed a whole lot at part time level professionalism wise, it’s not the same as 10 year ago.
 

Obviously this team won’t go on forever but we’re already adding guys on 2/3 year contracts who will be the new younger core we can hopefully keep together going forward. Scotty Stewart, Liam Henderson and hopefully the likes of Chris Hamilton. 

Not sure how Cove would have a bigger budget than ourselves either? They also are Aberdeen based for training and have a whole lot of Aberdeen based PT players who will eventually run out. They might need to reshuffle the way they operate.

 

Arbroath have always had a reasonable support and one of the best at PT level. Even at the bottom of L2 we’d get decent crowds. If Arbroath can continue to shift 900 season tickets (don’t see why not we’ve made a whole lot of progress on that front) and have home crowds of 12/13/1400, plus away supports, then I would say that’s the best of both worlds. 
 

In our 3 years so far our average attendance, which most of clubs money in Scotland comes from has been around 13/1400. Average so far this season is 1502. Hamilton is 1401. Morton is 1353 and QoTs is 1078. Paying part time club costs alongside having similar crowds to other clubs in the division and receiving similar prize money at the end of each year would surely mean our budget cannot be too far off? With the players having the added bonus of being able to have a job.

 

So as full time players at other clubs in the league get older and decide they want to go part time we will also be in a good position to go for them. There’ll always be good options out there. I actually think any half decent top half League 1 team could survive in this league comfortably by getting the right loans in. Again being in a position where loan players get to train full time with their clubs means we are able to get a lot of the better ones. They still get games at this level and time with their parent club.

 

The games changing a lot and yes FT is the obvious choice for a lot of clubs and there are benefits I think there’s benefits to remaining part time too and as a part time club we are in a good position to try and establish ourselves as a team who is bottom half of this division or top half of League 1 and I am very happy with that.

[Skyline Drifter]

41 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Again though, the games changed a whole lot at part time level professionalism wise, it’s not the same as 10 year ago.
 

Obviously this team won’t go on forever but we’re already adding guys on 2/3 year contracts who will be the new younger core we can hopefully keep together going forward. Scotty Stewart, Liam Henderson and hopefully the likes of Chris Hamilton. 

Not sure how Cove would have a bigger budget than ourselves either? They also are Aberdeen based for training and have a whole lot of Aberdeen based PT players who will eventually run out. They might need to reshuffle the way they operate.

 

Arbroath have always had a reasonable support and one of the best at PT level. Even at the bottom of L2 we’d get decent crowds. If Arbroath can continue to shift 900 season tickets (don’t see why not we’ve made a whole lot of progress on that front) and have home crowds of 12/13/1400, plus away supports, then I would say that’s the best of both worlds. 
 

In our 3 years so far our average attendance, which most of clubs money in Scotland comes from has been around 13/1400. Average so far this season is 1502. Hamilton is 1401. Morton is 1353 and QoTs is 1078. Paying part time club costs alongside having similar crowds to other clubs in the division and receiving similar prize money at the end of each year would surely mean our budget cannot be too far off? With the players having the added bonus of being able to have a job.

 

So as full time players at other clubs in the league get older and decide they want to go part time we will also be in a good position to go for them. There’ll always be good options out there. I actually think any half decent top half League 1 team could survive in this league comfortably by getting the right loans in. Again being in a position where loan players get to train full time with their clubs means we are able to get a lot of the better ones. They still get games at this level and time with their parent club.

 

The games changing a lot and yes FT is the obvious choice for a lot of clubs and there are benefits I think there’s benefits to remaining part time too and as a part time club we are in a good position to try and establish ourselves as a team who is bottom half of this division or top half of League 1 and I am very happy with that.

I don't think the game's changed at all to be honest. Part time players (& training schedules) getting far more professional as they undoubtedly have doesn't really change "the game". I don't deny that the part time sides have been able to close the ability gap by becoming more professional and fitter on the pitch but I don't think that particularly changes recruitment much. You're still shopping in the same market. As much as you want to pretend it's not there or shouldn't be there, there still is a massive status difference between being a 'full time footballer' and being a guy who works in a bank or on the bins and plays football at weekends, even if that's for Arbroath. Players will continue to strive for those full time positions until they accept they aren't capable or they settle down with a family and need a more secure job. For the moment Arbroath have a huge advantage over other part time sides because they were in the right place at the right time and got £0.5m of Govt subsidy for Covid plus have done well out of Championship prize money which was three times as much as any other part time side apart from Alloa. To an extent that sort of thing is therefore self sustaining.

Your management and keeping a core together has been a huge asset to you but either you'll keep getting older or Dick will have to work his magic again recruiting a whole new group. Dick's a very good manager and a tremendous character but he's not a magician. If he could work miracles and getting every signing right he wouldn't have spent virtually his entire career running East Coast part time clubs. It's unlikely that Arbroath will continually be the best part time club in the country ad infinitum. It's similarly unlikely that more than one part time side will hang around the Championship long. Sooner or later Arbroath will get a few signings wrong and get relegated (so will we, I'm not trying to pretend that's only a part time issue). And then it's not easy to get back and the best young full time loans are looking at Championship clubs. You won a watch with Nouble and Low both of which were to an extent highly fortunate signings and one of whom has likely got 6 weeks left at the club. You were a thoroughly good side before but those two have taken you to a genuine promotion challenger.

I guarantee you most of your money isn't coming from gate receipts either and in the scheme of things, the marginal difference between a 1,000 average and a 1,300 average in income is pretty trivial, especially if a large number of them are coming from season tickets with a decent level of discount in them or kids. I'm not particularly sure why a part time club has any lower costs than a full time one outside of wages either to be honest. If it doesn't own its' own training centre then it may have less hire charges but it has the same number of players and probably non playing staff, needs the same amount of kit, travels to the same number of matches, runs the same number of stadiums, etc.

I don't remotely agree that any of the top half in the league below could establish themselves comfortably at this level with a few good loans. You're underselling the great job Dick's done at Arbroath there. I do think Cove might though and that's because they do and will continue to throw money about. Their budget may or may not be as big as yours at the moment but they've been throwing decent money about for a few seasons now and Kelty behind them are doing the same who are a year further away. They'll both be serious threats to clubs at this level imminently. That might mean a couple of your QoS, Morton, Ayr, Hamilton, Arbroath types are punted back downstairs again shortly. The pyramid opening up has allowed clubs like that to progress to a level their benefactor budgets can take them. If Darvel keep throwing utterly daft money about they'll not be that far behind them either, and potentially some of the bigger ex-Juniors (Bonnyrigg Rose most imminently). Football is changing but not in the way you are saying I think. The pyramid opening up will see a lot of new names come up the leagues in the next decade. We'll lose some never to be seen again maybe. Berwick and East Stirlingshire have already gone without particularly imminently looking like coming back. Cowdenbeath might be next out the door. It's going to be tough for clubs like Albion Rovers to hang around through the influx of new cash.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Skyline Drifter

[RedLichtie86]

I don't think the game's changed at all to be honest. Part time players (& training schedules) getting far more professional as they undoubtedly have doesn't really change "the game". I don't deny that the part time sides have been able to close the ability gap by becoming more professional and fitter on the pitch but I don't think that particularly changes recruitment much. You're still shopping in the same market. As much as you want to pretend it's not there or shouldn't be there, there still is a massive status difference between being a 'full time footballer' and being a guy who works in a bank or on the bins and plays football at weekends, even if that's for Arbroath. Players will continue to strive for those full time positions until they accept they aren't capable or they settle down with a family and need a more secure job. For the moment Arbroath have a huge advantage over other part time sides because they were in the right place at the right time and got £0.5m of Govt subsidy for Covid plus have done well out of Championship prize money which was three times as much as any other part time side apart from Alloa. To an extent that sort of thing is therefore self sustaining.
Your management and keeping a core together has been a huge asset to you but either you'll keep getting older or Dick will have to work his magic again recruiting a whole new group. Dick's a very good manager and a tremendous character but he's not a magician. If he could work miracles and getting every signing right he wouldn't have spent virtually his entire career running East Coast part time clubs. It's unlikely that Arbroath will continually be the best part time club in the country ad infinitum. It's similarly unlikely that more than one part time side will hang around the Championship long. Sooner or later Arbroath will get a few signings wrong and get relegated (so will we, I'm not trying to pretend that's only a part time issue). And then it's not easy to get back and the best young full time loans are looking at Championship clubs. You won a watch with Nouble and Low both of which were to an extent highly fortunate signings and one of whom has likely got 6 weeks left at the club. You were a thoroughly good side before but those two have taken you to a genuine promotion challenger.
I guarantee you most of your money isn't coming from gate receipts either and in the scheme of things, the marginal difference between a 1,000 average and a 1,300 average in income is pretty trivial, especially if a large number of them are coming from season tickets with a decent level of discount in them or kids. I'm not particularly sure why a part time club has any lower costs than a full time one outside of wages either to be honest. If it doesn't own its' own training centre then it may have less hire charges but it has the same number of players and probably non playing staff, needs the same amount of kit, travels to the same number of matches, runs the same number of stadiums, etc.
I don't remotely agree that any of the top half in the league below could establish themselves comfortably at this level with a few good loans. You're underselling the great job Dick's done at Arbroath there. I do think Cove might though and that's because they do and will continue to throw money about. Their budget may or may not be as big as yours at the moment but they've been throwing decent money about for a few seasons now and Kelty behind them are doing the same who are a year further away. They'll both be serious threats to clubs at this level imminently. That might mean a couple of your QoS, Morton, Ayr, Hamilton, Arbroath types are punted back downstairs again shortly. The pyramid opening up has allowed clubs like that to progress to a level their benefactor budgets can take them. If Darvel keep throwing utterly daft money about they'll not be that far behind them either, and potentially some of the bigger ex-Juniors (Bonnyrigg Rose most imminently). Football is changing but not in the way you are saying I think. The pyramid opening up will see a lot of new names come up the leagues in the next decade. We'll lose some never to be seen again maybe. Berwick and East Stirlingshire have already gone without particularly imminently looking like coming back. Cowdenbeath might be next out the door. It's going to be tough for clubs like Albion Rovers to hang around through the influx of new cash.

TL:DR

Arbroath are amazing.

[ellichtie]

The whole tedious PT/FT thing aside, the fact that Dick's taken us from nearly getting relegated out of the SPFL to challenging for the Championship play-offs with a decent amount of the same players from League 2 is an achievement in itself and a testament to how good of a manager he is. Aside from that the engagement from the board in future-proofing the club with all of the work in the community sets us up to keep getting the numbers in at Gayf every other week for the future. All of the coverage from stuff like A View From The Terrace and the live games on Friday nights help that aswell. Can't see this level of success lasting forever with teams like Kelty, Cove, Bonnyrigg etc. pushing up the leagues but it's definitely a great time to be an Arbroath fan and I think we'll all look back on this period in 20 years fondly.

[stan3600]

Wow, some pretty verbose opinions here. We’re doing very well. Dick has done a great job. Not all our players are ageing - I don’t see where the average age of 29 for the starting 11 comes from. Certainly not the last few weeks.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, stan3600 said:

Wow, some pretty verbose opinions here. We’re doing very well. Dick has done a great job. Not all our players are ageing - I don’t see where the average age of 29 for the starting 11 comes from. Certainly not the last few weeks.

Starting 11 on October 16th when I worked them all out was:

Gaston, 34
Hamilton, 29
Thomson, 34
O'Brien, 30
Little 32,
McKenna, 30
Henderson, 25
Craigen, 30
Stewart, 25
Hilson, 28
Nouble, 25

Average 29.3

To be fair it was maybe just a bad week to pick? Your most recent team with Chris Hamilton, Clark, Donnelly and Dowds in for Thomson, Henderson, Craigen and Hilson is 30 years younger in total and averages at 26.5 yrs old. Even 26.5 still leaves you the 2nd oldest team behind Inverness, though it's not especially old.

[1320Lichtie]

A lot of good points Skyline

 

Yes we will get relegated at some point but hopefully the foundations are in place to make ventures back into this league a lot more often than we did before 

No we will not always be the best part time team but again off the park I think as a part time club you’d find it hard to better what we’re doing and have put in place recently.

We have no reason to fear any PT club going forward I think we are currently the benchmark and the growth over the last few years since the new board have come in are exemplary. They couldn’t have got it more right. On the field success has obviously allowed for a lot of the work that’s been done off the park 

Yes Dick is a great manager. Nouble and Low are great players and we are extremely lucky right now. DC especially is irreplaceable

 

Players will strive for FT when younger but when career maybe does not go as planned or job opportunities come up away from football we will be in a great position to pick these guys up