Juniors In The Pyramid

[Jacksgranda]

Pretty much this. The League Cup is actually relatively popular because (a) it gives clubs like us the chance to tackle bigger clubs and (b) it gives the bigger non-OF clubs another chance to actually win something. Realistically, no non-OF club is going to win the league for the next 20 years; cup competitions are much more winnable.

The SPFL board, and the full time clubs, really couldn't give a toss about the pyramid; they essentially told the teams that were affected by it to get on and sort it out. If there had been a united front by all Scotland's non-league sides, then a more logical solution would be in place now. Instead, the juniors didn't want to get involved, so you have option B (or maybe option C). Until they do get involved, all the other suggestions are simply rearranging the toys in the sandpit.

Which have been thrown there from the pram, in some instances.

[MacGafraidh]

Here is the deal as far as I can see it, it is the SFA's ball and they govern who plays with it, the Juniors (as far as I am aware) have more or less to a man (with the exception of Banks O Dee) said that they want no part in the LL/HL Level 5 or the EOS/SOS Level six that we have at present.

What may be surprising to the Juniors is that it is what it is, we could argue the rights and wrongs on whether the Juniors should have been consulted or whether they should have moved on blind faith? That is an argument on tens if not hundreds of threads on here and it does no one any good apart from getting folks dander up. The comment made about EKFC and BSC having no history, I would be frank and say, if Pollok, Clydebank, Arthurlie, Troon, Auchenleck, Linlithgow or Cumnock had their hat in the ring, neither of these clubs would be playing LL football now. They had to go with the names that were interested.

Like I say, it is what it is, should the Juniors want to pow wow and come join the party they may have to concede that it maybe at Level 7 or below. Like I say it is their baw.

I don't see any easy resolution, but I reckon when the first big club breaks ranks the rest will follow. I hope so, but the ones who want to stay regionalized, well let them. If they want to limit their ambition then so be it. I like Junior football and it should feed into the SPFL in my opinion, but it may have missed the boat.

[LongTimeLurker]

Here is the deal as far as I can see it, it is the SFA's ball and they govern who plays with it, the Juniors (as far as I am aware) have more or less to a man (with the exception of Banks O Dee) said that they want no part in the LL/HL Level 5 or the EOS/SOS Level six that we have at present.

The HL stated that they wanted no part of the ten club north feeder that Gordon Smith initially proposed, so the "pyramid" plan was modified to accommodate them, so that even no hope outfits like Rothes that would struggle in the north region juniors could get in. About a third of the members that vote at an SFA AGM are nonleague seniors. When you talk about it being the SFA's ball it's worth bearing that in mind because it has a huge impact on who is getting to determine who plays with it and who is getting a helping hand to reach entry level on club licensing. The whole system is corrupt to the core.

[The Old Northerner]

All you have to do is follow the links to see that Bankies Alive is right on this. In the application form for the Facilities Strategy Grant it states that only Full Members of the SFA are eligible to apply:

The purpose of this award is to help Senior football clubs meet the criteria to obtain a Scottish FA National Club Licence.

http://www.thescottishfootballpartnership.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Facilities_Strategy_Grant.pdf

Eligibility Criteria

1) The applicant is a Full Member of the SFA

That's a prime example of how in recent years the so called "pyramid" has been aimed at those who were already full members of the SFA and junior clubs were not expected to participate.

Any Auchinleck posters know under which Award their SFP grant falls?

[MacGafraidh]

The HL stated that they wanted no part of the ten club north feeder that Gordon Smith initially proposed, so the "pyramid" plan was modified to accommodate them, so that even no hope outfits like Rothes that would struggle in the north region juniors could get in. About a third of the members that vote at an SFA AGM are nonleague seniors. When you talk about it being the SFA's ball it's worth bearing that in mind because it has a huge impact on who is getting to determine who plays with it and who is getting a helping hand to reach entry level on club licensing. The whole system is corrupt to the core.

I don't doubt there are BETTER FOOTBALL teams in the Junior set up than LL/HL, however they did not want to come in (for whatever reason) so the SFA are using the teams that want to participate.

[LongTimeLurker]

...in a setup that was deliberately designed to ensure that outcome.

[MacGafraidh]

Without wishing to go over old ground and that maybe true, but the Juniors (as far as we are lead to believe) have not come round the table to hash any league reconstruction/emancipation into the senior ranks since the LL/HL partnership was announced a year ago. I get that they look after their own first and perhaps the wrong message was given to the Juniors in the beginning, but that was a year ago. If a resolution was wanted then it would have been reached.

[LongTimeLurker]

The SFA are the UEFA and FIFA sanctioned national association and the SJFA is subordinate to it as an affiliated body, so there is no need for negotiations and resolution between the two. If the SFA were interested in a genuine all-encompassing pyramid they could wind up the SJFA as an affiliated national association and tell its component regions to affiliate directly in future so they operate on a par with the EoS and SoS leagues. Given player registration and referee appointments are done by the SFA, pretty much all the SJFA actually does as an affiliated national association is administer one national cup competition and a semi-pro level national team that operates sporadically at best. Those things could easily be handled by an SFA committee.

[Hillonearth]

This has been done to death on various threads before, but my view has always been that if the LL had been slated to begin in a year's time from the initial announcement - i.e. this season - there would have been considerable interest from some of the bigger clubs in the grade once they had had time to properly weigh up the pros and cons.

As things transpired, the letters inviting applications were received a couple of months before it was due to begin operation, and naturally no-one was going to make that blind leap of faith with that kind of notice. After its first year in existence, the geography and dramatis personae which now pre-existed, centred round Edinburgh, the Borders and Galloway put off any subsequent applications, certainly from the Central and Ayrshire regions.

In these discussions, the juniors seem to be portrayed in many cases as intransigent dinosaurs, where it's closer to the truth to say that they were merely unwilling to gamble the continued existence of their clubs on a proposal with ten weeks notice.

[MacGafraidh]

The SFA are the UEFA and FIFA sanctioned national association and the SJFA is subordinate to it as an affiliated body, so there is no need for negotiations and resolution between the two. If the SFA were interested in a genuine all-encompassing pyramid they could wind up the SJFA as an affiliated national association and tell its component regions to affiliate directly in future so they operate on a par with the EoS and SoS leagues. Given player registration and referee appointments are done by the SFA, pretty much all the SJFA actually does as an affiliated national association is administer one national cup competition and a semi-pro level national team that operates sporadically at best. Those things could easily be handled by an SFA committee.

Agree completely LLL, the only part I was not aware was that the SFA could wind up the SJFA. I agree the work they do could be done easily within the SFA. SJFA members are also reluctant die to the threat of no automatic placement to teh league they were in if they would get relegated. But if there was no SJFA then that might go away with proper organization.

This has been done to death on various threads before, but my view has always been that if the LL had been slated to begin in a year's time from the initial announcement - i.e. this season - there would have been considerable interest from some of the bigger clubs in the grade once they had had time to properly weigh up the pros and cons.

As things transpired, the letters inviting applications were received a couple of months before it was due to begin operation, and naturally no-one was going to make that blind leap of faith with that kind of notice. After its first year in existence, the geography and dramatis personae which now pre-existed, centred round Edinburgh, the Borders and Galloway put off any subsequent applications, certainly from the Central and Ayrshire regions.

In these discussions, the juniors seem to be portrayed in many cases as intransigent dinosaurs, where it's closer to the truth to say that they were merely unwilling to gamble the continued existence of their clubs on a proposal with ten weeks notice.

Thats a fair point, but we are a year on and still none wanted to apply for the vacant slots in the LL. Like it or not the LL is level 5, There is no gimmes that the Juniors would automatically be allowed directly into level 5, especially if they keep waiting.

They may have to be promoted from the bottom to find their level.

[parsforlife]

This has been done to death on various threads before, but my view has always been that if the LL had been slated to begin in a year's time from the initial announcement - i.e. this season - there would have been considerable interest from some of the bigger clubs in the grade once they had had time to properly weigh up the pros and cons.

As things transpired, the letters inviting applications were received a couple of months before it was due to begin operation, and naturally no-one was going to make that blind leap of faith with that kind of notice. After its first year in existence, the geography and dramatis personae which now pre-existed, centred round Edinburgh, the Borders and Galloway put off any subsequent applications, certainly from the Central and Ayrshire regions.

In these discussions, the juniors seem to be portrayed in many cases as intransigent dinosaurs, where it's closer to the truth to say that they were merely unwilling to gamble the continued existence of their clubs on a proposal with ten weeks notice.

Its been said before , but the idea that the lowland league was formed overnight and nobody knew it was on the cards until the application process began is not true. It had been discussed at a serious level up to 2 years before that. I don't consider that short notice. And as said clubs have had a further year to consider joining the LL and no juniors applied.

[Hillonearth]

Its been said before , but the idea that the lowland league was formed overnight and nobody knew it was on the cards until the application process began is not true. It had been discussed at a serious level up to 2 years before that. I don't consider that short notice. And as said clubs have had a further year to consider joining the LL and no juniors applied.

There was general awareness that it was being discussed in a blue sky way, and was likely to happen in the future, but confirmation that it was actually going ahead last season only came out - to us certainly - at the tail end of the season before last.

As I said previously, the set-up that now pre-exists - effectively the old EOS Premier with a few add-ons - has put off any subsequent application from this side of the country. The likes of Talbot who are the sort of club who really should be in the LL if it purports to represent the best of the non-league game almost certainly won't see it as an attractive proposition now, with the loss of local derbies, increased travel costs and diminished crowds joining the LL would entail.

[parsforlife]

There was general awareness that it was being discussed in a blue sky way, and was likely to happen in the future, but confirmation that it was actually going ahead last season only came out - to us certainly - at the tail end of the season before last.

As I said previously, the set-up that now pre-exists - effectively the old EOS Premier with a few add-ons - has put off any subsequent application from this side of the country. The likes of Talbot who are the sort of club who really should be in the LL if it purports to represent the best of the non-league game almost certainly won't see it as an attractive proposition now, with the loss of local derbies, increased travel costs and diminished crowds joining the LL would entail.

Exactly , clubs were well aware and they knew it was likely to happen, they were then told when it would happen with a reasonable application time. You can't then expect them to hold off when they there were enough viable applications to start the league.

As you say, we have the set up know and we should run with it, what we do to try and bring the juniors on board i have no idea unless the SFA go very authoritarian on this.

[Hillonearth]

Exactly , clubs were well aware and they knew it was likely to happen, they were then told when it would happen with a reasonable application time. You can't then expect them to hold off when they there were enough viable applications to start the league.

As you say, we have the set up know and we should run with it, what we do to try and bring the juniors on board i have no idea unless the SFA go very authoritarian on this.

I'd maintain that a couple of months - three at most - is hardly a reasonable timeframe to weigh up the pros and cons of such a momentous (and potentially risky) decision.

It comes back to my initial assertion that had there been a year's notice of establishment of the LL, I'm fairly certain a good few big junior names would have been interested.

The corollary to that of course would have been that a lot fewer EOS teams would have made it in, which I can't help but think may have been a contributory factor in the short flash to bang time we ended up with.

[parsforlife]

I'd maintain that a couple of months - three at most - is hardly a reasonable timeframe to weigh up the pros and cons of such a momentous (and potentially risky) decision.

It comes back to my initial assertion that had there been a year's notice of establishment of the LL, I'm fairly certain a good few big junior names would have been interested.

The corollary to that of course would have been that a lot fewer EOS teams would have made it in, which I can't help but think may have been a contributory factor in the short flash to bang time we ended up with.

2-3 months is a long time really, even if you take it as 8 weeks you could give 4 weeks notice of a meeting to discuss LL, have a vote 2 weeks after that and give yourselves 2 weeks to complete an application. And thays ignoring the fact that most of the pros and cons should have been weighed up in the proceeding 2 years. Hell you could even extend that given many of the arguments aren't restrained purely by the LL, they are overall arguments over joining the pyramid or potentially joining the spfl(or sfl as it would have been) debates that have been going on for what seems like forever.

I don't believe juniors were deliberately put off, they weren't courted sure but then why should they have been?

[Hillonearth]

2-3 months is a long time really, even if you take it as 8 weeks you could give 4 weeks notice of a meeting to discuss LL, have a vote 2 weeks after that and give yourselves 2 weeks to complete an application. And thays ignoring the fact that most of the pros and cons should have been weighed up in the proceeding 2 years. Hell you could even extend that given many of the arguments aren't restrained purely by the LL, they are overall arguments over joining the pyramid or potentially joining the spfl(or sfl as it would have been) debates that have been going on for what seems like forever.

I don't believe juniors were deliberately put off, they weren't courted sure but then why should they have been?

The actual deadline for applications was a fortnight or three weeks from receipt of the letter IIRC, so the scenario above wouldn't have worked - the two or three months I mentioned earlier was the timeframe before the actual start of the LL!

There seems to be a canard going around that the juniors wanted to be begged to sign up which simply isn't the case. I've stated many times that a pyramid is the way forward, but the set-up that's been arrived at due to the haste in which this was implemented simply isn't representative of either the geography or demographics of the area it ostensibly covers.

[LongTimeLurker]

They may have to be promoted from the bottom to find their level.

Doubt it. As things stand the Lowland league is not strong enough to provide a comfortable place for struggling SPFL clubs to regroup after relegation and it's probably going to take a while to even get it up to the full compliment of 16 licensed clubs because some of the current members appear unlikely to get entry level by may next year.

Give it a few years and the relegation of a couple of the current cartel of SPFL clubs and there is going to be pressure for further changes. England provides an example of how pyramids can evolve over time. Traditionally there were two parallel systems of nonleague clubs in a similar manner to how Scotland has the junior-senior divide. There were the semi-pro clubs in the Southern and Northern Premier Leagues on the one hand, and the "amateur" ones in the Isthmian and Northern Leagues on the other. In 1979 the stronger traditionally semi-pro clubs in the Southern and Northern Premier League formed the Alliance Premier (now the Conference) to push for a pyramid arrangement with the Football League, while the traditionally amateur clubs gave it the body swerve.

That didn't stop the Isthmian League later becoming the third feeder to the Alliance Premier in 1985, because that was the common sense place to slide them in, as would also be the case with the east and west superleagues (but not the north superleague in a similar manner to the Northern League in England) in a Scottish context.

[parsforlife]

The actual deadline for applications was a fortnight or three weeks from receipt of the letter IIRC, so the scenario above wouldn't have worked - the two or three months I mentioned earlier was the timeframe before the actual start of the LL!

There seems to be a canard going around that the juniors wanted to be begged to sign up which simply isn't the case. I've stated many times that a pyramid is the way forward, but the set-up that's been arrived at due to the haste in which this was implemented simply isn't representative of either the geography or demographics of the area it ostensibly covers.

It certainly was longer than 2 weeks or at least the announcement was.

You might say its not the case but its very easy to get the illusion that juniors seemed to consider themselves more worthy of attention than others, they wanted more time, had more demands and wanted to fulfil less requirements. None of which seemed to affect EoS or SoS clubs.

[Jacksgranda]

It certainly was longer than 2 weeks or at least the announcement was.

You might say its not the case but its very easy to get the illusion that juniors seemed to consider themselves more worthy of attention than others, they wanted more time, had more demands and wanted to fulfil less requirements. None of which seemed to affect EoS or SoS clubs.

Maybe the EoS and SoS had most of these requirements already fullfilled? (I don't know, I'm only asking.)

[LongTimeLurker]

More a case of them having a lot less to lose, given they were moving away from playing against teams that play on public parks with very few if any paying spectators and as senior clubs were going to be able to keep their traditional cup culture while junior clubs were being asked to give up on the Junior Cup which is still seen as being very important in the heartlands of the junior game.