Juniors In The Pyramid

[LongTimeLurker]

Great lets make league cup a 22 club competition, because that's credible

Having small part-time clubs playing midweek games on a fully national basis based on a random draw is insane. As for whether regionalisation or ditching the League Cup will ever happen all it takes is another credible breakaway threat to get the smaller clubs to fall into line on issues like that.

[Bankies Alive]

The Football partnership will make small grants available for Junior clubs but have made more substantial funds available for "senior" clubs to achieve SFA licensing standard.

Read it through,the funding for licensing is only available to "senior" clubs.

The point I was making wasnt about the League Cup,it was more the fact that even a top division club playing at the other end of the country couldnt attract 300 to a game,its laughable.

[HibeeJibee]

Having small part-time clubs playing midweek games on a fully national basis based on a random draw is insane.

Lets have a reality check here. It's the only round of any of the 3 cups played midweek on a national basis with any meaningful representation of part-time clubs. This season there were 6 out of 22. Of those only 2 were involved in games drawing 3 figures - Hamilton v Alloa (649), and fluke draw of the 2 most distant clubs who in their own divisions are among the worst supported - Stranraer v Ross County (249).

It's an issue of utterly trifling importance.

[HibeeJibee]

The Football partnership will make small grants available for Junior clubs but have made more substantial funds available for "senior" clubs to achieve SFA licensing standard.

Read it through,the funding for licensing is only available to "senior" clubs.

So how come Talbot got over £10,000 for their terrace covering - which would appear one of the biggest single Facilities awards the SFP made last year?

Anyway it depends what you're saying. If SFP has a higher threshold for clubs in HL, LL and up then that was as open to Junior clubs entering as it was to anyone else (e.g. East Kilbride).

And SFA aren't "saying to the Juniors you need a licence" anyway, are they? It's entirely optional, and won't be mandatory beneath HL/LL either.

[LongTimeLurker]

Lets have a reality check here. It's the only round of any of the 3 cups played midweek on a national basis with any meaningful representation of part-time clubs. This season there were 6 out of 22. Of those only 2 were involved in games drawing 3 figures - Hamilton v Alloa (649), and fluke draw of the 2 most distant clubs who in their own divisions are among the worst supported - Stranraer v Ross County (249).

It's an issue of utterly trifling importance.

Did you forget to change usernames? If the part-time clubs are getting bumped out so easily what's the point in them even being there? In years past it was all about hitting the financial jackpot with a game against a much larger club, but 3674 at Hampden for Queen's Park vs Rangers suggests those days are drawing to a close.

[HibeeJibee]

You know perfectly well what the point being made is . Only a portion of part-timers come through to R2 and of those only 2 were involved in crowds of under 1,000. Of those 2 matches, there was a very low crowd at Stranraer v Ross County, but it's about the most extreme case it's possible to have. None of that argues they're "getting bumped out so easily" or that it's no longer worth their time entering... it's a simple observation that the issue which you and BankiesAlive seem to think exists doesn't. For most clubs, most of the time, it's clearly worthwhile and financially rewarding. It is/was the richest cup.

BankiesAlive has cited an extreme example which is unrepresentative of the general experience. It proves little or nothing.

It would be like me observing that certain early Junior Cup ties barely attract any crowd. It's not representative.

[parsforlife]

Did you forget to change usernames? If the part-time clubs are getting bumped out so easily what's the point in them even being there? In years past it was all about hitting the financial jackpot with a game against a much larger club, but 3674 at Hampden for Queen's Park vs Rangers suggests those days are drawing to a close.

It wasn't at Hampden. And that crowd is significantly higher than what queens park normally get. Ok so it's not massive sums, but it's certainly enough to be happy with.

This idea of "what's the point if your not winning things" is rather odd and I simply don't get it, the vast majority of clubs around the world don't regularly win trophies. And that includes most juniors too. Clubs don't purely judge success by how much silver is in the cabinet.

[Bankies Alive]

Fans obviously don't want to travel these long distances going by lower league and cup crowds involving these lower end SPFL clubs so once again whats the point of making part time players travel hundreds of miles to play in a game that virtually nobody will travel to see?

[parsforlife]

Fans obviously don't want to travel these long distances going by lower league and cup crowds involving these lower end SPFL clubs so once again whats the point of making part time players travel hundreds of miles to play in a game that virtually nobody will travel to see?

So we go with 2 regions and we can do that with the league cup as well for your hypothetical. Ross county away to east stirlingshire, big crowd going to turn up? What about 3 regions, county away to montrose, is the crowd going to be large enough to satisfy you?

[LongTimeLurker]

This idea of "what's the point if your not winning things" is rather odd and I simply don't get it,

And the username changes again. If you are going to use quotes then quote what has actually been written and address that rather than building a strawman. The issue was what small part-time clubs are doing in a national cup competition being played in midweek in a format that no longer seems to be exciting significant fan interest. Winding this back closer to the point of the thread, it's the SPFL board, which is dominated by the full-time clubs, that gives the OK to the arrangements put together by the SFA on feeders. The main stumbling block on three-way feeders isn't the SPFL. It's the voting clout of the nonleague seniors within the full-membership of the SFA that leads to things being fixed in their favour so that the Highland league and what's not much more than a slightly rebranded EoS premier became the two feeders. Officeholders tend to curry favour with the people that vote at AGMs rather than pursuing what's best for the long-term health of the game as a whole.

[parsforlife]

And the username changes again. If you are going to use quotes then quote what has actually been written and address that rather than building a strawman. The issue was what small part-time clubs are doing in a national cup competition being played in midweek in a format that no longer seems to be exciting significant fan interest. Winding this back closer to the point of the thread, it's the SPFL board, which is dominated by the full-time clubs, that gives the OK to the arrangements put together by the SFA on feeders. The main stumbling block on three-way feeders isn't the SPFL. It's the voting clout of the nonleague seniors within the full-membership of the SFA that leads to things being fixed in their favour so that the Highland league and what's not much more than a slightly rebranded EoS premier became the two feeders. Officeholders tend to curry favour with the people that vote at AGMs rather than pursuing what's best for the long-term health of the game as a whole.

"building a strawman" i suspect you need to look in the mirror here. Your an expert at it.

The spfl board maybe able to give the go ahead to 3 regions, but they can't just go around pissing of clubs, nor can they do things like make the relegation spot automatic, far less increase the number of relegation spots, something that longterm is of course the ideal.

The league cup as a competition is healthy , if you don't go around selectively quoting attendences there is plenty to suggest fans are happy to turn up and watch their teams play in this competition . It is also well sponsored, something that gets ignored by junior fans, probably becouse their clubs/organisation systematicaly fails to get anything more than a few training balls each .

Part time clubs play in it because it gets fans through the gate and a cup run or playing a rival you don't normally play gets fans excited and creates a buzz around the club, even if that doesnt happen participation is financially rewarding.

[newcastle broon]

And the username changes again. If you are going to use quotes then quote what has actually been written and address that rather than building a strawman. The issue was what small part-time clubs are doing in a national cup competition being played in midweek in a format that no longer seems to be exciting significant fan interest. Winding this back closer to the point of the thread, it's the SPFL board, which is dominated by the full-time clubs, that gives the OK to the arrangements put together by the SFA on feeders. The main stumbling block on three-way feeders isn't the SPFL. It's the voting clout of the nonleague seniors within the full-membership of the SFA that leads to things being fixed in their favour so that the Highland league and what's not much more than a slightly rebranded EoS premier became the two feeders. Officeholders tend to curry favour with the people that vote at AGMs rather than pursuing what's best for the long-term health of the game as a whole.

You saying parsforlife and hibee jibee are the same person

Ye could nae even get the queens park v rangers venue right

[The Old Northerner]

Read it through,the funding for licensing is only available to "senior" clubs.

You would have though that the SFP rep would have mentioned that during his trip to Haddington.

[parsforlife]

You would have though that the SFP rep would have mentioned that during his trip to Haddington.

He probably did but only after you started ignoring him as he walked round shouting f**k the juniors and asking how on earth talbot got his cash.

[Hampden Diehard]

"building a strawman" i suspect you need to look in the mirror here. Your an expert at it.

The spfl board maybe able to give the go ahead to 3 regions, but they can't just go around pissing of clubs, nor can they do things like make the relegation spot automatic, far less increase the number of relegation spots, something that longterm is of course the ideal.

The league cup as a competition is healthy , if you don't go around selectively quoting attendences there is plenty to suggest fans are happy to turn up and watch their teams play in this competition . It is also well sponsored, something that gets ignored by junior fans, probably becouse their clubs/organisation systematicaly fails to get anything more than a few training balls each .

Part time clubs play in it because it gets fans through the gate and a cup run or playing a rival you don't normally play gets fans excited and creates a buzz around the club, even if that doesnt happen participation is financially rewarding.

Pretty much this. The League Cup is actually relatively popular because (a) it gives clubs like us the chance to tackle bigger clubs and (b) it gives the bigger non-OF clubs another chance to actually win something. Realistically, no non-OF club is going to win the league for the next 20 years; cup competitions are much more winnable.

The SPFL board, and the full time clubs, really couldn't give a toss about the pyramid; they essentially told the teams that were affected by it to get on and sort it out. If there had been a united front by all Scotland's non-league sides, then a more logical solution would be in place now. Instead, the juniors didn't want to get involved, so you have option B (or maybe option C). Until they do get involved, all the other suggestions are simply rearranging the toys in the sandpit.

[Bankies Alive]

From The Football Partnership Website : Facilities Award

The purpose of the award is to support Senior football clubs in meeting the requirements

to obtain an SFA National Club Licence by funding infrastructure improvements.

Please note that this Facilities Strategy Grant replaced the Club Licensing Scheme

Please note that the Scottish Football Partnership can only award up to a maximum of

£40,000 per club at a rate of 60% of eligible expenditure.

Community Award :

Grant Award

Please note that The Scottish Football Partnership can award up to 75% of approved

expenditure, subject to a maximum award of £10,000 per club.

So Talbot got the maximum award possible at £10,000 but if they`d been senior they could`ve got up to £40,000

[HibeeJibee]

Two things:

[1] - Talbot received over £10,000.

[2] - what they mean by "Senior" surely cannot be what we'd term Senior? If that was the case then, for example, Junior clubs would only be eligible for the last of these 4 categories which is for "innovative ideas". Are they not just using the word 'Senior' to mean 'adult'?

http://www.thescottishfootballpartnership.com/apply/

You must see what I mean. Haddington would not be eligible for any bar the last if "Senior" means "SPFL/HL/LL/EOS/SOS" in SFP parlance.

But still lets say you are correct: are we sure it doesn't mean tier 5 up (the 'Pro' game)? Even if not: is it as the Juniors aren't in the pyramid? I just don't buy independent agencies being in on some anti-Junior stitch-up, tbh.

[LongTimeLurker]

All you have to do is follow the links to see that Bankies Alive is right on this. In the application form for the Facilities Strategy Grant it states that only Full Members of the SFA are eligible to apply:

The purpose of this award is to help Senior football clubs meet the criteria to obtain a Scottish FA National Club Licence.

http://www.thescottishfootballpartnership.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Facilities_Strategy_Grant.pdf

Eligibility Criteria

1) The applicant is a Full Member of the SFA

That's a prime example of how in recent years the so called "pyramid" has been aimed at those who were already full members of the SFA and junior clubs were not expected to participate.

[MacGafraidh]

Is there a way for a Junior club to also be a "full member" (Girvan scenario)

[LongTimeLurker]

Is there a way for a Junior club to also be a "full member" (Girvan scenario)

Two have so far by meeting the conditions of club licensing, Linlithgow Rose and Banks O'Dee, but it would be easier for more to do it and hence to gain automatic Scottish cup entry if access to these grants were more even-handed. When those clubs applied (probably to the surprise of the SFA officeholders) an extra condition about being committed to progression to the Lowland League was added at the last minute apparently to try to scare central belt junior clubs away.