Juniors In The Pyramid

[parsforlife]

Promotion is not mandatory at any level in England, except between divisions within the same league, where there may be league rules that they must take the step up. However as you are in that region already, the chances are you would take the promotion. In fact I don't think it mandatory, that you must take the step up from Football League to the Premier League, but I can never see that one being tested.

From Conference down to the Regional First divisions, each level has ground criteria, it would be easy enough to stop promotion on default anyway. It could be something stupid like having 5 less car parking spaces, or having a seated stand which is 25 below the minimum, but deliberately doing it so no promotion. But once more I don't see that happening as you are already playing in very broad geographical areas anyway. But as precedent, I know that Hayes declined promotion from The Isthmian League to the Conference South in the past. So certainly from the Regional premiers to Conference Regional, promotion can be declined.

The County Leagues, below the 3 Regional Leagues, and below is where it really changes. A lot of the time, rules state, if you meet the ground criteria, have ended up in a certain position in a feeder league, you can apply for membership of the higher league. More often than not it will be accepted, if you meet the criteria, but not always. There is also nothing stopping you moving sideways, like moving from the Wessex league to the combined counties league, if the league accepts you off course. Often the leagues are imbalanced and below capacity, so getting promoted or moving sideways is welcomed by the accepting league.

Thanks. So not mandatory by the FA, but the leagues may have rules that say promotion is mandatory between leagues within that organisation, or potentially between leagues that have rules related to other organisations. I.e. the football league may require clubs to accept promotion between their leagues and also accept promotion to the premier league.

[Bankies Alive]

So why are the SFA insisting on mandatory promotion? Its a nonsense.

[LongTimeLurker]

If the SFA managed to convince Talbot and Linlithgow to join the pyramid, I can guarantee the majority of junior clubs would follow.

I think you probably mean the Lowland League rather than pyramid and if you do I'm not sure how the majority can follow when the LL is limited in size to 16 clubs. If the juniors become part of a wider pyramid it will almost certainly be a collective decision with not much changing for most of the clubs that play below the top superleague tier. What the SJFA appear to be planning at the moment is an elite division comprised of top east and west superleague clubs and there has been mention made in internal SJFA correspondence that was posted on the junior subforum that they envisage this division joining the wider pyramid at the same level as the LL and HL.

[JakeSAFC]

That's what the SFA should've done, got the the best juniors from the West and East and made it tier 5. Hopefully one day that'll be the case

[vikingTON]

The Juniors weren't interested and so missed the only opportunity to enter on a level playing field. If they ever enter it should be underneath the LL feeding into it.

[parsforlife]

The Juniors weren't interested and so missed the only opportunity to enter on a level playing field. If they ever enter it should be underneath the LL feeding into it.

Absolutely, the LL was formed by open application, once it reaches 16 teams its a case of missed your chance now you have to fight your way up.

[GalaKev]

Thanks. So not mandatory by the FA, but the leagues may have rules that say promotion is mandatory between leagues within that organisation, or potentially between leagues that have rules related to other organisations. I.e. the football league may require clubs to accept promotion between their leagues and also accept promotion to the premier league.

The thing to remember that all leagues are completely separate, under the umbrella of the FA, where no club, should not be denied a possibility to further itself. Each league is responsible for its own sponsorship, league rules, own cups etc.

I was told once that when you win a league (top division), you are not actually promoted. You are actually guaranteed an invite to join the higher league, assuming you meet the criteria . Some leagues have agreements, like the Southern, Isthmian and Northern, so that all divisions at level 7 & 8 are equal in number, so sideways movement will take place between leagues, based on geography, if no volunteers are found.

All teams are required to be affiliated to a County FA, which organizes things like the Hampshire Senior Cup, etc, which is compulsory to enter if outside the Football league. They are members of their league and if they meet the criteria, they can apply to be full FA members.

The surprising bit is there are 700 ish members of the FA, who can enter the FA Cup. Considering England is about 10 times bigger in population. This actually, sits rights with about 70 SFA members? So maybe the SFA are not too far out in members?

[GalaKev]

Absolutely, the LL was formed by open application, once it reaches 16 teams its a case of missed your chance now you have to fight your way up.

I am astounded that this was a shock to any club. We were discussing this in EoS committee rooms 2 years before anything happened. I agree the Juniors can say this and that is wrong.

But why didn't they shout and come back with other proposals, rather than crying its rubbish after the event. The juniors could have had a big say in the way the lower levels were formed, but instead they decided to sit on their hands tight lipped and not say a word.

[LongTimeLurker]

If the SFA were actually serious about junior involvement in the Lowland League, the first step in forming the pyramid would have been that the SJFA would have been disaffiliated as a subordinate national association and the three regional setups (that do the lion's share of the administrative work not done by the SFA) within the juniors would have been told to affiliate directly with the SFA to put them on a level pegging with the SoS, EoS and Highland leagues. It's noteworthy that the only junior club that actually wanted to get into the new fifth tier at the time of launch, Banks o' Dee, were given no opportunity to apply.

[HTG]

I've asked this question umpteen times and I haven't seen a satisfactory answer yet so I'll ask it again:

In what sense would we have a genuinely "weighted" pyramid split between the North and the South of Scotland if the 160+ Junior teams entered the fray? At what tier would the North simply run out of clubs compared to the South?

There is a numerical imbalance which has to be addressed. At the very least, the South should have been split into two.

It suits the sfa and others to a tee in some respects not to have the Junior teams in. They can have a nice balance between North and South. Their main issue is the complete lack of representation from Scotland's largest conurbation in and around Glasgow. Interesting that their level of desperation to address that saw a successful bid to join the Lowland League by a team who, at the point of acceptance had no team and no ground to play at. Yet we were to believe that some element of sporting achievement and adequate facilities would influence the decision.

I'm a passionate advocate of the pyramid and indeed of my team joining the Lowland League but I'm not blind to the stunts that are being pulled either.

The regional structure developed by the juniors is bang on for Scotland even if the organisation ofthe game is light years behind in many other ways.

[parsforlife]

I've asked this question umpteen times and I haven't seen a satisfactory answer yet so I'll ask it again:

In what sense would we have a genuinely "weighted" pyramid split between the North and the South of Scotland if the 160+ Junior teams entered the fray? At what tier would the North simply run out of clubs compared to the South?

There is a numerical imbalance which has to be addressed. At the very least, the South should have been split into two.

It suits the sfa and others to a tee in some respects not to have the Junior teams in. They can have a nice balance between North and South. Their main issue is the complete lack of representation from Scotland's largest conurbation in and around Glasgow. Interesting that their level of desperation to address that saw a successful bid to join the Lowland League by a team who, at the point of acceptance had no team and no ground to play at. Yet we were to believe that some element of sporting achievement and adequate facilities would influence the decision.

I'm a passionate advocate of the pyramid and indeed of my team joining the Lowland League but I'm not blind to the stunts that are being pulled either.

The regional structure developed by the juniors is bang on for Scotland even if the organisation ofthe game is light years behind in many other ways.

It boils down to the spfl not wanting it, and it not being workable whilst spfl2 is a 10 team league. The numerical imballence doesn't absolutely need to be fixed(though it probably should be) and if it is fixed it can be done by a moving of the boundary to include say fife and lothians teams in the north section.

I reckon we are a decade away from 3 regions if it happens at all.

[LongTimeLurker]

The SFL were against three feeders. The SPFL's posture might be different given the changes to the voting structure skews things heavily towards the full-time clubs. The larger clubs don't really want the third and fourth tiers on board and made proposals revolving around regionalisation and colt team entry at that level.

[Bankies Alive]

Stranraer v Ross County in the League Cup this midweek drew a massive crowd of 297.

I know it was a cup competition but it is still a club from the top division in the country.

Why is there a reluctance for the SPFL clubs to embrace regionalisation given that fans dont turn out in any numbers

for these far travelled matches?

Just who are they keeping the status quo for? A few dozen people?

[parsforlife]

Stranraer v Ross County in the League Cup this midweek drew a massive crowd of 297.

I know it was a cup competition but it is still a club from the top division in the country.

Why is there a reluctance for the SPFL clubs to embrace regionalisation given that fans dont turn out in any numbers

for these far travelled matches?

Just who are they keeping the status quo for? A few dozen people?

Erm even if for some reason the spfl was to regionalise the league cup would remain national.

[LongTimeLurker]

If the spfl was able to regionalise the bottom two tiers odds on Stranraer and the other 19 clubs at that level would no longer be in the competition.

[parsforlife]

Great lets make league cup a 22 club competition, because that's credible

[HibeeJibee]

It would only require half of the clubs in SPFL1 and SPFL2 to vote against reconstruction that regionalised them and it wouldn't happen. I think it's unlikely enough they would do that, but if they were being dumped out of the League Cup it would be even less likely. If the 'big' clubs were even that bothered.

HTG makes a fair point about the balance - but it will only be resolved by the Juniors joining the pyramid, their clubs investing in licensing, then the system being evolved. You should get to a stage where there were enough licensed clubs to supports 2 credible feeders - East and West - then look to persuade the SPFL to accept that. It certainly won't happen by Juniors standing apart.

[Bankies Alive]

Junior clubs are denied access to funding that their "senior" counterparts are given to comply with licensing.

So on the one hand the SFA are saying to the Juniors you need a license the same as the "senior" clubs but we`re not giving you access to funding to do it!

[Marshmallo]

I've asked this question umpteen times and I haven't seen a satisfactory answer yet so I'll ask it again:

In what sense would we have a genuinely "weighted" pyramid split between the North and the South of Scotland if the 160+ Junior teams entered the fray? At what tier would the North simply run out of clubs compared to the South?

There is a numerical imbalance which has to be addressed. At the very least, the South should have been split into two.

It suits the sfa and others to a tee in some respects not to have the Junior teams in. They can have a nice balance between North and South. Their main issue is the complete lack of representation from Scotland's largest conurbation in and around Glasgow. Interesting that their level of desperation to address that saw a successful bid to join the Lowland League by a team who, at the point of acceptance had no team and no ground to play at. Yet we were to believe that some element of sporting achievement and adequate facilities would influence the decision.

I'm a passionate advocate of the pyramid and indeed of my team joining the Lowland League but I'm not blind to the stunts that are being pulled either.

The regional structure developed by the juniors is bang on for Scotland even if the organisation ofthe game is light years behind in many other ways.

They've made an arse of it by having a geographical boundary IMO. If there's 32 teams at tier 5, they should be splitting them up each year depending on who has been promoted and relegated. The 16 Northern most teams in the HL, the 16 Southern most on the LL. Maybe crap at first for a Stirling Uni or someone like that but over a few years it'd balance out to be more level.

[HibeeJibee]

Boundary technicalities are fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme, tbh.

BankiesAlive - you mean the Scottish Football Partnership's grants? Since when? Within the first few news pages of the SFP website there's articles about grants to Auchinleck (enclosure), Hill of Beath (barriers), Whittlets (dugouts), Wishaw (fence) and Vale of Leven (heating/showers).