Sportsound Watch

[DA Baracus]

5 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Sadly that's not true. They play a large role in shaping the public narrative.

The public discussion of Scottish football is widely conducted by stupid people. This keeps the discussion of Scottish football stupid.

They say nothing of relevance then. 

[Dons_1988]

It's MacPhee.
But aye, they're raging that MacPhee isn't one of their wee cliquey pals. Willie Miller's ludicrous rant was the worst. 
They were the same with Cathro as well, constantly sniping with the oh so hilarious 'laptop' jokes. 
Every single one of them, including Richard Gordon, needs punted. A bunch of moronic dickheads who have zero relevance to Scottish football.

You really have to stop lumping Richard Gordon into this.

[DA Baracus]

5 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

 

You really have to stop lumping Richard Gordon into this.

 

I really don't. He's not as bad as the rest, but he's a sycophant and he's part of the wee clique.

He enables all their dog shit barking about Celtic and Sevco far too often.

[Dons_1988]

4 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

I really don't. He's not as bad as the rest, but he's a sycophant and he's part of the wee clique.

He enables all their dog shit barking about Celtic and Sevco far too often.

His job is to enable discussion, so it's not really a fair accusation. He isn't there to offer all his personal views. He actually does give regulars like Miller, Bonner, "Biscuits" etc quite a hard time when they're talking shite but ultimately they are there to give their "expert" view and he is there to host/facilitate discussion.

 

[VictorOnopko]

6 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

I really don't. He's not as bad as the rest, but he's a sycophant and he's part of the wee clique.

He enables all their dog shit barking about Celtic and Sevco far too often.

Richard Gordon is a beacon of calm competence among a rabble of frothing idiots on Sportsound.  It's nonsense to suggest he is an enabler or a sycophant.

I never thought I would detest any sport broadcaster more than the apparently non-retired Chick Young, but "Biscuits" is running him close these days.  Almost everything he says demonstrates that he's thick as mince, and he obviously has a huge agenda as an agent.  The MacPhee stuff was really bad.  All topped off by having a voice which is somehow even more annoying than Chick's.

[Guest JTS98]

I suppose the problem is that Scottish football is essentially a village. Everybody knows everybody and that influence running through the game is strong.

Look at how the ranks closed around Cathro before he'd even sat in his seat. Or how cheap digs at someone like MacPhee are tolerated. Or the madness around Alessio a few weeks ago.

Even the batshit-mental hysteria around a 1-0 defeat in Prague a decade or so ago that Craig Levein has never been allowed to forget shows the danger of not being on the inside of Scottish football's pals' act. Listening to the way that is discussed in Scotland you'd think Levein invented the 4 6 0 system or that he was the first coach to use it. You'd be shocked to find it's a perfectly common system used by plenty of teams all over the world all the time. Yet, Levein, as coach of a side that most people accept had a lack of good international strikers, has never been allowed to forget using it in a game where a draw would have done us fine. We lost because of a shit goal from a corner. You'd be forgiven for forgetting that. It's the go-to line for many people when discussing Levein and plenty of pundits and media types join in.

There's a strong anti-intellectual vibe running through Scottish football and a rejection of anything and anyone new.

In a village run by a strong clique it's very hard for any kind of alternative views to be heard or for new ideas to be accepted. Sportsound is just a reflection of that.

Edited November 12, 2019 by JTS98

[Dons_1988]

15 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I suppose the problem is that Scottish football is essentially a village. Everybody knows everybody and that influence running through the game is strong.

Look at how the ranks closed around Cathro before he'd even sat in his seat. Or how cheap digs at someone like MacPhee are tolerated. Or the madness around Alessio a few weeks ago.

Even the batshit-mental hysteria around a 1-0 defeat in Prague a decade or so ago that Craig Levein has never been allowed to forget shows the danger of not being on the inside of Scottish football's pals' act. Listening to the way that is discussed in Scotland you'd think Levein invented the 4 6 0 system or that he was the first coach to use it. You'd be shocked to find it's a perfectly common system used by plenty of teams all over the world all the time. Yet, Levein, as coach of a side that most people accept had a lack of good international strikers, has never been allowed to forget using it in a game where a draw would have done us fine. We lost because of a shit goal from a corner. You'd be forgiven for forgetting that. It's the go-to line for many people when discussing Levein and plenty of pundits and media types join in.

There's a strong anti-intellectual vibe running through Scottish football and a rejection of anything and anyone new.

In a village run by a strong clique it's very hard for any kind of alternative views to be heard or for new ideas to be accepted. Sportsound is just a reflection of that.

Not sure on that example.

People get hung up on 4-6-0 true, but it was a horrendous performance against an average Czech team. We parked the bus when there was no need and due to not having a striker we barely got out of our own half, constantly inviting pressure on ourselves. Also those on the wings (Miller, maybe Naismith?) looked like they had no idea what they were doing. It was embarrassing.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Dons_1988

[Rodhull]

3 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Not sure on that example.

People get hung up on 4-6-0 true, but it was a horrendous performance against an average Czech team. We parked the bus when there was no need and due to not having a striker we barely got out of our own have, constantly inviting pressure on ourselves. Also those on the wings (Miller, maybe Naismith?) looked like they had no idea what they were doing. It was embarrassing.

Naismith and Jamie Mackie started as the wingers. I remember as occasionally the camera would cut to Miller on the bench and he looked absolutely raging throughout.

[Guest JTS98]

15 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Not sure on that example.

People get hung up on 4-6-0 true, but it was a horrendous performance against an average Czech team. We parked the bus when there was no need and due to not having a striker we barely got out of our own have, constantly inviting pressure on ourselves. Also those on the wings (Miller, maybe Naismith?) looked like they had no idea what they were doing. It was embarrassing.

I can think of numerous worse Scotland performances over the years.

Levein did what coaches the world over do. He ran the numbers. We were away from home against a higher-seeded side in a situation where we didn't need to win and a draw would leave the Czechs needing snookers. We weren't blessed with quality up front, so he made it about getting the ball wide and support from the middle.

In our previous campaign we had failed to score in 3 out of 4 away games and in the campaign before that we had failed to score in Italy, Ukraine and Georgia. Added to our group opener with Lithuania, we had now failed to score in 7 of our last 11 away games in qualification groups.

Playing for the point still seem daft?

I don't disagree that it was a mistake. He clearly didn't have time to implement the system properly on the training ground. But it's far from the worst we've seen from Scotland over the years, and there's a clear logic behind it which can quite easily be laid out.

And he got it right to an extent. If we'd defended a corner like a professional football side, we'd have got the 0-0 and the path to the play-offs would have been wide open. Would he have been slaughtered to the same extent by playing 4 5 1 and losing 2-0?

Did we have the attackers to take the Czechs on? The prolific Kenny Miller?

But Levein's not 'wan ae the boeeez' so he gets absolutely fucking slaughtered for it.

Edited November 12, 2019 by JTS98

[Dons_1988]

7 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I can think of numerous worse Scotland performances over the years.

Levein did what coaches the world over do. He ran the numbers. We were away from home against a higher-seeded side in a situation where we didn't need to win and a draw would leave the Czechs needing snookers. We weren't blessed with quality up front, so he made it about getting the ball wide and support from the middle.

I don't disagree that it was a mistake. He clearly didn't have time to implement the system properly on the training ground. But it's far from the worst we've seen from Scotland over the years, and there's a clear logic behind it which can quite easily be laid out.

And he got it right to an extent. If we'd defended a corner like a professional football side, we'd have got the 0-0 and the path to the play-offs would have been wide open. Would he have been slaughtered to the same extent by playing 4 5 1 and losing 2-0?

Did we have the attackers to take the Czechs on? The prolific Kenny Miller?

But Levein's not 'wan ae the boeeez' so he gets absolutely fucking slaughtered for it.

He would've been slaughtered as he'd already made a pish start. The simple 'we had no strikers therefore it's shit' argument is wrong, as clearly 4-6-0 can work in certain teams/circumstances. However, as I said it was a total park the bus job, we offered zero threat. Mackie/Naismith looked absolutely lost, they were the ones meant to get us up the pitch and they had no idea what to do.

Miller may not have won the game but he might have taken the ball in, eased some pressure on us, pressured the Czech back line a bit more. It ended up being wave after wave of Czech attacks, a half decent Czech team would've put 4 or 5 past us. 

[Guest JTS98]

5 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

He would've been slaughtered as he'd already made a pish start. The simple 'we had no strikers therefore it's shit' argument is wrong, as clearly 4-6-0 can work in certain teams/circumstances. However, as I said it was a total park the bus job, we offered zero threat. Mackie/Naismith looked absolutely lost, they were the ones meant to get us up the pitch and they had no idea what to do.

Miller may not have won the game but he might have taken the ball in, eased some pressure on us, pressured the Czech back line a bit more. It ended up being wave after wave of Czech attacks, a half decent Czech team would've put 4 or 5 past us. 

Like I said, I agree it was unwise without adequate preparation time.

But the logic is there. Our record of scoring away from home was shite, 7 failures in our previous 11, and we didn't have to win.

A mistake, yes. But worse than 'Walter' blowing it at home to Belarus in the 2006 qualifiers? Worse than McLeish (albeit with injuries) losing to a Georgia side with a couple of weans when we were within touching distance of qualifying?

We lost 1-0 away from home to a side that went on to reach the quarter finals of the tournament. Honestly, the reaction is unreal. And it's all related to the pish we get on Sportsound week in week out.

Edited November 12, 2019 by JTS98

[Rod1877]

1 hour ago, JTS98 said:

Look at how the ranks closed around Cathro before he'd even sat in his seat. Or how cheap digs at someone like MacPhee are tolerated. Or the madness around Alessio a few weeks ago.

Oran Kearney got the same treatment.

[wastecoatwilly]

7 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

 

English was absolutely spot on. Refreshing to hear an Irishman calling them out on the fact their ‘Irish identity’ stuff is absolute nonsense.

Self righteousness was another good point and highlights their laughable moral high ground on lazio.

 

An eggchaser telling fans what they can and can't sing.

What has any war got to do with football?

 

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, JTS98 said:

Like I said, I agree it was unwise without adequate preparation time.

But the logic is there. Our record of scoring away from home was shite, 7 failures in our previous 11, and we didn't have to win.

A mistake, yes. But worse than 'Walter' blowing it at home to Belarus in the 2006 qualifiers? Worse than McLeish (albeit with injuries) losing to a Georgia side with a couple of weans when we were within touching distance of qualifying?

We lost 1-0 away from home to a side that went on to reach the quarter finals of the tournament. Honestly, the reaction is unreal. And it's all related to the pish we get on Sportsound week in week out.

Both of those managers earned the right for their bad performances to be shrugged off. Levein didn't. His record in competitive matches was atrocious, particularly when contrasted to his performance in friendlies. That points towards his main probably being overly cautious - when it mattered he shat himself, just as he did every single time with Hearts. It's why he has never won a trophy in his career.

That said, the criticism of playing 4-6-0 and the constant hang-up on it (including people constantly claiming it was a "6-4-0") is indeed for all the wrong reasons. There is nothing wrong with 4-6-0 as a formation, and even the line-up he put out contained enough attacking players (Mackie, Dorrans, Morrison, Naismith), but the mentality of it all was wrong, and the players had no idea what they were doing. On top of that, his arrogance in defending it all probably pushed people over the edge.

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, JTS98 said:

I suppose the problem is that Scottish football is essentially a village. Everybody knows everybody and that influence running through the game is strong.

Look at how the ranks closed around Cathro before he'd even sat in his seat. Or how cheap digs at someone like MacPhee are tolerated. Or the madness around Alessio a few weeks ago.

Even the batshit-mental hysteria around a 1-0 defeat in Prague a decade or so ago that Craig Levein has never been allowed to forget shows the danger of not being on the inside of Scottish football's pals' act. Listening to the way that is discussed in Scotland you'd think Levein invented the 4 6 0 system or that he was the first coach to use it. You'd be shocked to find it's a perfectly common system used by plenty of teams all over the world all the time. Yet, Levein, as coach of a side that most people accept had a lack of good international strikers, has never been allowed to forget using it in a game where a draw would have done us fine. We lost because of a shit goal from a corner. You'd be forgiven for forgetting that. It's the go-to line for many people when discussing Levein and plenty of pundits and media types join in.

There's a strong anti-intellectual vibe running through Scottish football and a rejection of anything and anyone new.

In a village run by a strong clique it's very hard for any kind of alternative views to be heard or for new ideas to be accepted. Sportsound is just a reflection of that.

I think that this is mostly right and would only add the point that the coverage is utterly parochial as well. While it's only right that Scottish football is given the lion's share of coverage, it's striking how little insight or analysis is given to anything else in the Scottish sports media other than a cursory glance at the 'English scores'. Take the Sportsound discussion about racism after the Bulgaria-England match last month: rather than inviting an outside guest (perhaps a journalist of eastern European football) who could actually place the issue in its appropriate context, instead they leave it for a bunch of ex professional, braying dinosaurs in Scotland to compare racist apples with the bigoted oranges that have been peddled in the Scottish game for generations. When Scotland are playing an international opponent or Scottish club sides are facing European sides, you find no credible analysis of the other team within the Scottish media but rather meaningless soundbites: typically from a former Old Firm player, often with an only tenuous link to either the country or club in question. 

The market for football content in Scotland deserves better than this mix of navel-gazing and tabloid trash on every single format, not least from a supposed national broadcaster like the BBC. 

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Both of those managers earned the right for their bad performances to be shrugged off.1) Levein didn't. His record in competitive matches was atrocious, particularly when contrasted to his performance in friendlies. That points towards his main probably being overly cautious - when it mattered he shat himself, just as he did every single time with Hearts. 2) It's why he has never won a trophy in his career.

That said, the criticism of playing 4-6-0 and the constant hang-up on it (including people constantly claiming it was a "6-4-0") is indeed for all the wrong reasons. There is nothing wrong with 4-6-0 as a formation, and even the line-up he put out contained enough attacking players (Mackie, Dorrans, Morrison, Naismith), but the mentality of it all was wrong, 3) and the players had no idea what they were doing. On top of that, his arrogance in defending it all probably pushed people over the edge.

1) Prague was his third competitive match and we were still well in with a shout in the group after losing. Hardly calls for hysteria.

2) Overly-simplistic. He has coached sides that don't win very often. Plenty of Hearts coaches have never won a trophy. Plenty of Dundee United coaches too. He built a good Hearts side that coincided with Celtic's Seville side and a loaded Rangers. In his first spell at Hearts only one trophy was won by a non-Old Firm side and in his second none were. His Dundee United side would have won a cup if Mark Kerr wasn't thick as f**k.

3) I agree with this. Probably too ambitious as an international manager with little preparation time and players unfamiliar with the system. But I think the way he defended it is just the action of a man with his back against the wall taking pelters in public that are way over the top. I think most people would get pretty defensive in the face of that.

[cmontheloknow]

Archie's prose had some reaching for a thesaurus up the the thread, but how about reaching for the sick bucket... interesting turn of phrase towards the end of this paragraph. wooof.

 

[The Marly]

Did Richard Gordon really say that? Surprising if true as I normally find him very professional. Makes you wonder how much of a fanny McPhee must be.   
 

No he didn't. He stopped at "Austin McFa..."

[craigkillie]

On point 1, it wasn't as though he was sacked for it. He was given plenty of time to turn it round (even the start of a second campaign), but couldn't do so. If he had beaten the Czechs at home or picked up whichever other results got us into the play-offs, the Prague game would have been quickly forgotten. Likewise, if he had been able to take a few more than 2 points from the opening 4 games of the next campaign, he would have been remembered differently.

The two games before Prague were a brutal 0-0 draw in Lithuania and then that game against Liechtenstein, so it's not as though it tarnished a flying start.

[Austin McCann]

1 hour ago, The Marly said:

9 hours ago, Archie McSquackle said:

Did Richard Gordon really say that? Surprising if true as I normally find him very professional. Makes you wonder how much of a fanny McPhee must be.   
 

No he didn't. He stopped at "Austin McFa..."

Then they all giggled like wee schoolgirls. It's a cliquey unprofessional show that needs a clear out. Some people have been there far too long.