Sportsound Watch

[Loonytoons]

Impossible.

The sectarianism at the Forfar East Fife game was horrendous today. Oh wait a minute....

[Valentino Bolognese]

13 hours ago, Dele said:

You've lost your bet. There is a whole scheme in Dundee that circle their lives around 'Celtic and Irish Freedom Fighters cause'. It might be minority of the scheme, but it's the loudest and therefor gets the whole lot of it put under the umbrella.

Which one? Genuinely curious. I lived in Dundee (as in non-local admittedly and mostly in the centre / west end but had a lot of local friends and worked for Dundee companies) for almost a decade and I've never seen or heard any of this.

Edit. It occurs to me that in my half-century of living all over Scotland, my youth in Ayrshire and middle years in Lanarkshire were, by a considerable distance, the times when bigotry was a factor. It seems to me to be entirely absent in the Highlands and East coast. There may be small pockets in Dundee or wherever, but it's not the same as, for example, Harthill where you see red, white and blue kerbstones and union jacks in wondows. 

For what it's worth we need a few things to happen, not just the clubs stamping it out. Firstly we need to stop the segregation of schools along religious lines. It ingrains a sense of otherness / difference from childhood. Hands up who on this forum remembers running battles with the local rival catholic / protestant school? These places also ferment the bigotry.  Secondly we need the parents of kids to grow up, and stop conflating religious beliefs and false heritage with an 'identity'. 

Edited March 2, 2019 by Valentino Bolognese
Stuff

[ayrmad]

22 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I at no time suggested that all football fans from Dumfries follow Queens.

Believe me, I know that that's nowhere near the case and I constantly lament it.  I said that sectarianism wasn't a feature of life here and is only ever manifest through the vehicle of football, not the local kind.

In all honesty, I live in a heavy duty Rangers village and don't hear sectarianism very often at all except through football, people from elsewhere seem to think that all the folk are walking about spouting their pish all the time, I'll hear stuff sometimes at shutting time when folk are toddling home blootered but everyday life is not contaminated with it.

[Monkey Tennis]

1 minute ago, ayrmad said:

In all honesty, I live in a heavy duty Rangers village and don't hear sectarianism very often at all except through football, people from elsewhere seem to think that all the folk are walking about spouting their pish all the time, I'll hear stuff sometimes at shutting time when folk are toddling home blootered but everyday life is not contaminated with it.

I'm sure that's true.

Even then I'd suggest that the toddling home blootered stuff is largely football inspired.   That's pretty much my point.

[tree house tam]

10 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

Which one? Genuinely curious. I lived in Dundee (as in non-local admittedly and mosty in the centre / west end but had a lot of local friends and worked for Dundee companies) for almost a decade and I've never seen or heard any of this.

He'll likely be on about lochee, well known to be green and white.

Edited March 2, 2019 by tree house tam
Stupid phone

[ayrmad]

Just now, Monkey Tennis said:

I'm sure that's true.

Even then I'd suggest that the toddling home blootered stuff is largely football inspired.   That's pretty much my point.

Of course it is, the sectarian songs are just part of their songbook, I've no doubt that quite a few will be bigoted and I'd probably witness it if I was in the pub often enough.

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, tree house tam said:

He'll likely be on about lochee, well known to be green and white.

That's what I thought, but only from the gibberish of George Galloway.

[Valentino Bolognese]

3 minutes ago, tree house tam said:

He'll likely be on about lochee, well known to be green and white.

I lived on the edge of Lochee for about 5 years, and now that you mention it I do recall that it was regarded as somewhat catholic by the locals Catholic. It's not really the same as the west coast, I can assure you. 

 

[tree house tam]

Just now, Valentino Bolognese said:

I lived on the edge of Lochee for about 5 years, and now that you mention it I do recall that it was regarded as somewhat catholic by the locals Catholic. It's not really the same as the west coast, I can assure you. 

 

Mate, I'm a pretty cultured laddie and know a fair bit about both those areas mentioned, no need for assurances. 

[Valentino Bolognese]

12 minutes ago, ayrmad said:

In all honesty, I live in a heavy duty Rangers village and don't hear sectarianism very often at all except through football, people from elsewhere seem to think that all the folk are walking about spouting their pish all the time, I'll hear stuff sometimes at shutting time when folk are toddling home blootered but everyday life is not contaminated with it.

So somewhere like Cumnock, Maybole, Drongan? I grew up in Alloway and I can assure you that they are hell-holes of sectarianism to the extent that there's almost no catholic population there. I guess that's why there's no daily evidence of bigotry. 

[Valentino Bolognese]

7 minutes ago, tree house tam said:

Mate, I'm a pretty cultured laddie and know a fair bit about both those areas mentioned, no need for assurances. 

I'm sure you are Tam, don't take my comment the wrong way. As someone who has experienced both I'm sure you'll agree that there's a world of difference. In all honesty outside of Glasgow, Lanarkshire and bits of Ayrshire the rest of the county plays at it. 

That's not to say it's not horribe but we all know where the hotbeds are and the football teams that by their inactions (or in come cases actions) support it. 

Edit now that I remember I was asked at a job interview for DC Thomson "what school did ye go tae".  But they were quite well known for that pish. 

Edited March 2, 2019 by Valentino Bolognese
Forgot something

[ayrmad]

1 minute ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

So somewhere like Cumnock, Maybole, Drongan? I grew up in Alloway and I can assure you that they are hell-holes of sectarianism to the extent that there's almost no catholic population there. I guess that's why there's no daily evidence of bigotry. 

I'm in Tarbolton and I've no idea what the catholic population is, doesn't really interest me, Mossblown is just down the road and it had/has a catholic school so I'm guessing there are enough about.

[Valentino Bolognese]

1 minute ago, ayrmad said:

I'm in Tarbolton and I've no idea what the catholic population is, doesn't really interest me, Mossblown is just down the road and it had/has a catholic school so I'm guessing there are enough about.

Ah. They used to get bussed into Queen Margaret from that part of Ayrshire. 

[ayrmad]

2 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

Ah. They used to get bussed into Queen Margaret from that part of Ayrshire. 

They used to get bussed in there from all over once they got to academy age, if all these things were happening to do with sectarianism all the time there wouldn't be any catholics in all those places you named.

[Valentino Bolognese]

17 minutes ago, ayrmad said:

They used to get bussed in there from all over once they got to academy age, if all these things were happening to do with sectarianism all the time there wouldn't be any catholics in all those places you named.

Eh? That's not what I said. 

Anyway my main points was that  segregating schools encourages and maintains a culture of sectarianism and bigotry. It also encourages people who feel 'different' to move to other areas, producing pockets of populations that are homogenous. I don't think that's a controversial view. 

As it happens in those small Ayrshire villages the numbers of catholics is very small, as it is in other areas of the country. Possibly related to the same cultural dynamics that cause people wander out of pubs at closing time singing sectarian songs. 

In all of this, football is a factor. Specifically Celtic and Rangers. The fan base and to an extent the clubs enable and encourage it. Scottish football, and Scotland in general, would be a much better place without it. 

Edited March 2, 2019 by Valentino Bolognese

[ayrmad]

4 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

Eh? That's not what I said. 

Anyway my main points was that  segregating schools encourages and maintains a culture of sectarianism and bigotry. It also encourages people who feel 'different' to move to other areas, producing pockets of populations that are homogenous. I don't think that's a controversial view. 

As it happens in those small Ayrshire villages the numbers of catholics is very small, as it is in other areas of the country. Possibly related to the same cultural dynamics that cause people wander out of pubs at closing time singing sectarian songs. 

In all of this, football is a factor. Specifically Celtic and Rangers. The fan base and to an extent the clubs enable and encourage it. Scottish football, and Scotland in general, would be a much better place without it. 

When did you make that your main point?

The catholic population might be very small but it's not non-existent, if there is 1 catholic for every 10 protestants then there's still quite a few in all these orange hell-holes, I don't know how they put up with being accosted all the time or having their windows panned in regularly.

[Valentino Bolognese]

1 minute ago, ayrmad said:

When did you make that your main point?

The catholic population might be very small but it's not non-existent, if there is 1 catholic for every 10 protestants then there's still quite a few in all these orange hell-holes, I don't know how they put up with being accosted all the time or having their windows panned in regularly.

Apologies I wasn't clear, it was in an earlier post. 

Do you think people need to regulary experience violence or intimidation to feel like they aren't welcome? Not looking for an argument but I know these villages and they are often defined by the lodges, the bands, and of course 'the Rangers'. 

I realise you're an Ayr fan so not part of that crowd, but to live in that community and not see that it's a harmful influence is surprising. 

[ayrmad]

Just now, Valentino Bolognese said:

Apologies I wasn't clear, it was in an earlier post. 

Do you think people need to regulary experience violence or intimidation to feel like they aren't welcome? Not looking for an argument but I know these villages and they are often defined by the lodges, the bands, and of course 'the Rangers'. 

I realise you're an Ayr fan so not part of that crowd, but to live in that community and not see that it's a harmful influence is surprising. 

I'm just telling you that it's not out there on a daily basis as much as people think, I've no doubt that might change if your in the local singing YNWA or whatever, I'm also in no doubt that it's just under the surface for a fair % of the village.

[Valentino Bolognese]

1 minute ago, ayrmad said:

I'm just telling you that it's not out there on a daily basis as much as people think, I've no doubt that might change if your in the local singing YNWA or whatever, I'm also in no doubt that it's just under the surface for a fair % of the village.

Yes, we agree entirely. It would be above the surface if the various catholic/celtic, protestant/rangers factions hadn't self-segregated themselves into population pockets, but they're happier becuase they live with 'people like them' so it doesn't come up on the daily walk to the bakers.  Get a few drinks in though and it bubbles up. To be united, you need something to be 'against' so communitues gravitate towards bigotry. 

The whole sorry situation is enabled by deeply embedded social sectarianism, from school segregation to football teams. Although it's mostly to be found in the ex shipbuilding and mining areas there's still too much influence at higher levels of society, whether that's the SFA or Holyrood. 

 

[Derry Alli]

2 hours ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

I lived on the edge of Lochee for about 5 years, and now that you mention it I do recall that it was regarded as somewhat catholic by the locals Catholic. It's not really the same as the west coast, I can assure you. 

Again, it's nothing to do with Catholicism. Most ofthem have no idea what they're screaming about, it doesn't stop the bile. Go to Sandys any Saturday and just listen.