calum_gers Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Would Celtic winning the Champions League make a difference in terms of Aberdeen or St Johnstone (or anyone) being seeded in the third or play-off round, which is really what is needed to give teams a realistic chance of progression. It's possible with a favourable draw just now, but your're just a likely to draw a top side like Real Sociedad as you are to draw a beatable one like Trnava, being seeded would actually help that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavieCFC Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 They've got a chance now that Ambrose is banned. Did you see how well Mulgrew did his place ? We can do it, i just dont think we will. Sure hope tae f**k im wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Would Celtic winning the Champions League make a difference in terms of Aberdeen or St Johnstone (or anyone) being seeded in the third or play-off round, which is really what is needed to give teams a realistic chance of progression. It's possible with a favourable draw just now, but your're just a likely to draw a top side like Real Sociedad as you are to draw a beatable one like Trnava, being seeded would actually help that. Dunno. I'll let a member of the co-efficient club answer. It would however net Celtic untold riches and make them really attractive to potential signings, thus rendering our domestic game even less competitive. Celtic could field three teams capable of cruising to domestic trebles - you know, the football we all watch all year. But hey, Aberdeen might get a slightly easier draw one year so Scottish football would really really benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calum_gers Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Dunno. I'll let a member of the co-efficient club answer. It would however net Celtic untold riches and make them really attractive to potential signings, thus rendering our domestic game even less competitive. Celtic could field three teams capable of cruising to domestic trebles - you know, the football we all watch all year. But hey, Aberdeen might get a slightly easier draw one year so Scottish football would really really benefit. I'm not suggesting it's something I want to see, merely curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm not suggesting it's something I want to see, merely curious. I'm sure that's true, but what I'm trying to spell out is that our league is such and CL riches are such that for OF clubs in particular to progress in that competition, is destructive for the game we are actually consumed with all year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marly Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Every major league in Europe has an elite 2 or 3 who can win it - that's life in football nowadays I'm afraid. Celtic will win our league for the forseeable future regardless of their CL progress. If they and other clubs raise the co-efficient then we may even get a 5th Euro place - that won't cure all the ills in Scottish football, but it will make it a tad more interesting for another club's fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Every major league in Europe has an elite 2 or 3 who can win it - that's life in football nowadays I'm afraid. Celtic will win our league for the forseeable future regardless of their CL progress. If they and other clubs raise the co-efficient then we may even get a 5th Euro place - that won't cure all the ills in Scottish football, but it will make it a tad more interesting for another club's fans. Yes, let's welcome the fact that in qualifying, Celtic could get ten times what United just got for selling the most promising young Scottish player in years. Let's make absolutely sure that clubs like yours can never again win a Cup by making the grotesque imbalance yet greater. Let's even pretend that other countries have remotely similar circumstances to ours. Waken up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAFC Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Celtic's season is effectively over after three games. Maybe the board will take notice when the crowds drop below 20k? SPL is going to be of little interest unless aberdeen somehow challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Jean King Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Can the great unwashed overcome the 4-1 defecit and go through? In more mundane matters can Sevco win the Petrofac training, Ramsdens, B&Q lower league, diddy, cut glass sherry decanter and thus claim their first ever domestic cup ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I want all the Scottish teams to do well in Europe but there is no way Celtic are going to pull back a 3-0 deficit against a team like Legia Warsaw. 2-1 away would have been a decent result away from home with 10 men but those two late goals sunk them. With the game at Murrayfield it might actually get even more embarrassing. If Legia get the first goal it could be a long night for Celtic fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttonhumper Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Ok, I'll try to ignore the identity of he who started the thread and I'll try to override its stupid wording. Celtic obviously can go through, but the poll needs to address whether people think they will. Personally, I think they very well might, but hope they don't. They overturned a two goal deficit against Karagandy last season and even nearly escaped from the joy that was Atrmedia a few years before. It's hardly inconceivable for Celtic to put three past a mediocre side at home. Now obviously this time we're talking Murrayfield rather than Parkhead, but that posed Celtic no great difficulties last week. I'd say the odds are against Celtic here, but still not wildly so. Fingers crossed that the Poles can score a goal and surely put the tie out of reach. Wouldn't actually be amazed if they got through. What odds can you get on Celtic progression? If you can get anywhere near 20-1 I might be tempted to part with a fiver. 4/1 at Ladbrokes is as long as the odds get, with Legia at 1/7 on to qualify and 6/1 to win the game itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully Wee Villa Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 That's not particularly tempting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudu Dahan pal Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 7-0 Legia Warsaw please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Would Celtic winning the Champions League make a difference in terms of Aberdeen or St Johnstone (or anyone) being seeded in the third or play-off round, which is really what is needed to give teams a realistic chance of progression. It's possible with a favourable draw just now, but your're just a likely to draw a top side like Real Sociedad as you are to draw a beatable one like Trnava, being seeded would actually help that. If they won the Champions League then they would gain approximately 39.5 national coefficient points for Scotland (based on the points Celtic gained in qualifying last season plus the points Real Madrid gained by winning the tournament). That would be 37.5 points more than they would gain if they go out on Wednesday and then lose their Europa League tie. Scotland's total is divided by 4, so those 37.5 points would correspond to a 9.375 point increase in Scotland's total. Assuming both Aberdeen and St Johnstone both go out this midweek, our national coefficient for 2014/15 would be 1.75 if Celtic go out twice, and 11.125 if they win the Champions League. Our overall coefficient (based on a five year cycle) would be 15.65 if they go out and 25.025 if they win the CL. That would be the difference between (approximately) 24th and 18th in the UEFA coefficient table, which would have corresponded to Aberdeen entering QR2 instead of QR1 and St Johnstone entering QR3 instead of QR2. In addition, the increase of 9.375 would correspond to an extra contribution of 1.875 for each team's individual coefficent. That would have meant that both Aberdeen and St Johnstone were seeded rather than unseeded in the QR2 draw, and that Aberdeen and Motherwell (had they got through) would have been seeded in the QR3 draw. That's obviously an extreme case, but it does show how their performances can improve things for our other clubs. I personally think that's more relevant than the extra money that Celtic get for competing, given that Celtic are in a different stratosphere from the rest of the clubs anyway, and can't really be considered as direct competitors to Aberdeen, Motherwell etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 If they won the Champions League then they would gain approximately 39.5 national coefficient points for Scotland (based on the points Celtic gained in qualifying last season plus the points Real Madrid gained by winning the tournament). That would be 37.5 points more than they would gain if they go out on Wednesday and then lose their Europa League tie. Scotland's total is divided by 4, so those 37.5 points would correspond to a 9.375 point increase in Scotland's total. Assuming both Aberdeen and St Johnstone both go out this midweek, our national coefficient for 2014/15 would be 1.75 if Celtic go out twice, and 11.125 if they win the Champions League. Our overall coefficient (based on a five year cycle) would be 15.65 if they go out and 25.025 if they win the CL. That would be the difference between (approximately) 24th and 18th in the UEFA coefficient table, which would have corresponded to Aberdeen entering QR2 instead of QR1 and St Johnstone entering QR3 instead of QR2. In addition, the increase of 9.375 would correspond to an extra contribution of 1.875 for each team's individual coefficent. That would have meant that both Aberdeen and St Johnstone were seeded rather than unseeded in the QR2 draw, and that Aberdeen and Motherwell (had they got through) would have been seeded in the QR3 draw. That's obviously an extreme case, but it does show how their performances can improve things for our other clubs. I personally think that's more relevant than the extra money that Celtic get for competing, given that Celtic are in a different stratosphere from the rest of the clubs anyway, and can't really be considered as direct competitors to Aberdeen, Motherwell etc. Good post. I was fed up of people just saying "co-efficient" as their cover all answer to why we should wish to see Celtic progress in this competition, without outlining what difference such a thing would really make. Your detailed breakdown, based on figures is therefore very welcome and impressive. When reading it, I found myself to be in agreement with what you were saying until it reached its conclusion, which really surprised me, given what had preceded it. Am I right in saying that even if Celtic were to win the whole damn thing then, that we still wouldn't get any additional entrants to the competitions? In fact all that would happen is that our existing qualifiers would stand to come in one round later and/or benefit from being seeded until slightly later? Is that really it? And as you say, even these minor scraps would only come via this most extreme scenario, one that everybody knows has no chance of actually unfolding. Logically, the huge cash benefit to Celtic, surely completely trumps it? This belief that we just have to accept the obscene scale of Celtic's advantage as it gets ever larger, bears no real scrutiny. Of course that advantage comes from a variety of sources, but the CL is a major one in why it's so huge just now. If we just accept it, then we're not only granting them the title in perpetuity, but rendering the chances of them being overcome by anyone in Cup-ties, ever smaller. It's the scale of this we need to be mindful of. If Celtic get past Legia, they stand to make ten times what Dundee United got for parting from Ryan Gauld - that is not just. The relative rewards are not in-keeping with the scale of the achievement. On a more realistic scale, how would others stand to benefit if Celtic say, do better than last season but worse than in the previous one? ie. they qualify for the groups but finish 3rd, enter the Europa and say survive a further round? That's likelier, would net Celtic a huge sum, would help entice better overseas players to join them and is the type of scenario many seem to think we should all wish for. I do get that there are some small benefits for Scottish clubs from Celtic progress if treated in isolation. This is not realistic though. Football finances are relative, not absolute and progress for Celtic would mean that everyone else - even those that 'benefit' - would be relatively, much worse off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenlantern Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 MT, you're still hung-up on this cash issue. Regardless of the revenue Celtic would attain with a prolonged spell in Europe, we still cannot compete for overseas players signatures with clubs such as Norwich, Sunderland, Swansea or Aston Villa and even some English championship clubs have bigger market prowess than Celtic. The gap between Celtic and the rest of scottish football will still be there, with or without the extra revenue. Nobody is asking you to support the richest scottish club in Europe. But your argument seems to be based around faulting a successful (maybe not so) participant in a flawed system. Celtic failing in Europe is less of benefit to Scottish football, than them actually progressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Every country from 16th to 51st on the UEFA coefficient list gets 1 CL place and 3 EL spots, with the only difference being the round of entry. A single season of Celtic winning the tournament wouldn't quite get us into that top 15 for an extra CL spot, but it would push us pretty close. The knock-on effects in future seasons of having more clubs seeded (and therefore probably winning) plus having Celtic enter the CL later would probably mean that we moved into that top 15 within a couple of years. Football finances might be relative if everyone is debt free and trying to compete for trophies, but that's not necessarily the case for all Scottish clubs. The likes of Motherwell and Aberdeen have debts which extra European prize money could help pay off. Their financial situation relative to Celtic is less important than their continued survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The gap between Celtic and the rest of scottish football will still be there, with or without the extra revenue. Nobody is asking you to support the richest scottish club in Europe. But your argument seems to be based around faulting a successful (maybe not so) participant in a flawed system. Celtic failing in Europe is less of benefit to Scottish football, than them actually progressing. Yes the gap will still exist, but it won't be the same size. I'm not faulting the participant. I'm just not backing them in their bid to exploit what you rightly identify as a flawed system. I think I've shown that your final point is at least debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenlantern Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Yes the gap will still exist, but it won't be the same size. I'm not faulting the participant. I'm just not backing them in their bid to exploit what you rightly identify as a flawed system. I think I've shown that your final point is at least debatable. That's fine. The money however, I suppose it's like us have loads & loads of meal vouchers, but we can only spend the damn things at Greggs. While the rest, outside Scottish football, can have theirs in Nandos. Excuse the shyte analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dryhorce Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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