SodjesSixteenIncher Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Very disappointing. Undoubtedly a draw but Yes need more than that at this stage. Salmond was enfuriating at times. Time after time he allowed himself to be dragged into the shitfest that Darling wanted, instead of succesfully deconstructing a painfully weak point from his opposition. "Ireland and Iceland are both bust now." Jesus fucking Christ you've got to take the open goals you're presented with. The usual indignant chuckling and "ah but you said this" game won't have impressed anyone. Opportunity missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Problem is that any negotiations on the currency union would have to involve Trident remaining here full time. That's the line in the sand the SNP certainly can't move from. The Yes view appears to be 'you will cave on what you say you won't do as we ll just negotiate on it. Everything's on the table ' 'Oh what Trident ? Oh that's non negotiable. We've said that and its off the table'. Do you see the problem here? Really?!!! You don't get it. We can use the currency whether London likes it or not though it's probably in rUK's interest to have a negotiated settlement. The weapons go as soon as practical. It's our soil. You might as well say that because we'll still have the Queen, we have to keep Trident... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Very disappointing. Undoubtedly a draw but Yes need more than that at this stage. Salmond was enfuriating at times. Time after time he allowed himself to be dragged into the shitfest that Darling wanted, instead of succesfully deconstructing a painfully weak point from his opposition. "Ireland and Iceland are both bust now." Jesus fucking Christ you've got to take the open goals you're presented with. The usual indignant chuckling and "ah but you said this" game won't have impressed anyone. Opportunity missed. Darling should've been tackled on this one as it is a blatant obvious lie. Either Ponsonby or Salmond should've made hay with it. Both these wee nations are doing better than us - check the stats, there's one above for a start. Hell, Iceland locked up the bankers, we just gave them more money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Very disappointing. Undoubtedly a draw but Yes need more than that at this stage. Salmond was enfuriating at times. Time after time he allowed himself to be dragged into the shitfest that Darling wanted, instead of succesfully deconstructing a painfully weak point from his opposition. "Ireland and Iceland are both bust now." Jesus fucking Christ you've got to take the open goals you're presented with. The usual indignant chuckling and "ah but you said this" game won't have impressed anyone. Opportunity missed. Apparently undecideds thought Salmond won 76% to 24% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 School report cards☺ Salmond 2/10 - Could do much better Darling 5/10 - Doing as much as can be expected. (with the dross he is having to pitch.) Salmond is rightly getting criticised as he has so much more the quality argument to work from. He let the side down. Gloves must be off for round 2. Darling is trying to sell a turkey. He knows it and got by. Just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 My God ! Undecideds must be thicker than I thought even the YES know that's not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Very disappointing. Undoubtedly a draw but Yes need more than that at this stage. Salmond was enfuriating at times. Time after time he allowed himself to be dragged into the shitfest that Darling wanted, instead of succesfully deconstructing a painfully weak point from his opposition. "Ireland and Iceland are both bust now." Jesus fucking Christ you've got to take the open goals you're presented with. The usual indignant chuckling and "ah but you said this" game won't have impressed anyone. Opportunity missed. Ivan McKee would have drove a team of horses right through that, Salmond and his advisers obviously decided to take the nicey nicey approach, know what I'm fed up to the back teeth being on the nice side, start getting stuck into these fcukers when the chance arises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Apparently undecideds thought Salmond won 76% to 24% Where you see that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Cort's Hamstring Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Darling should've been tackled on this one as it is a blatant obvious lie. Either Ponsonby or Salmond should've made hay with it. Both these wee nations are doing better than us - check the stats, there's one above for a start. Hell, Iceland locked up the bankers, we just gave them more money. Claiming Ireland are doing better than us is a bit debatable. It depends what particular statistics you use as your indicator of success. Obviously if Darling said they're bust, then that's just nonsense. Anyway, sounds like I didn't miss much. I guess we shouldn't be that surprised that someone who held the second highest office in the country wasn't completely hopeless, but I must admit I was expecting a clear victory for Salmond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Apparently? Were these the same undecideds that represented ROI in the commonwealth games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Claiming Ireland are doing better than us is a bit debatable. It depends what particular statistics you use as your indicator of success. Obviously if Darling said they're bust, then that's just nonsense. Anyway, sounds like I didn't miss much. I guess we shouldn't be that surprised that someone who held the second highest office in the country wasn't completely hopeless, but I must admit I was expecting a clear victory for Salmond. His main tactic was ask a question you know won't be answered then keep asking it as much as you can, I missed River City for that guff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Claiming Ireland are doing better than us is a bit debatable. It depends what particular statistics you use as your indicator of success. Obviously if Darling said they're bust, then that's just nonsense. Anyway, sounds like I didn't miss much. I guess we shouldn't be that surprised that someone who held the second highest office in the country wasn't completely hopeless, but I must admit I was expecting a clear victory for Salmond. I think it was always over optimistic to think Salmond would trounce Darling. These type of debates very rarely produce a clear winner. Maybe Kennedy/Nixon or most recently Sturgeon/Carmichael spring to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Where you see that? http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-only-stat-that-matters/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Cort's Hamstring Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I think it was always over optimistic to think Salmond would trounce Darling. These type of debates very rarely produce a clear winner. Maybe Kennedy/Nixon or most recently Sturgeon/Carmichael spring to mind. It was mainly based on how Darling always seems quite uncomfortable when you stick him in front of a camera, while Salmond is in his element. I'm not a fan of TV debates anyway to be honest, it makes it too much about personality for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 The yes campaign's response to any question seems to be to try and not answer and just claim it's 'scaremongering'. It's really getting on my tits now. And they go on about how they are running a 'positive' campaign, I don't want a f**king positive campaign, I want a truthful, honest, informative one. If you are asked a question then just answer it, don't call on the scaremongering card. And I say this as a Yes voter. It's just really been bugging me and is really amateurish. If the question is "What will the future be?" neither side can answer it, because nobody knows. That's the honest answer. The No campaign don't seem to get asked it though. If we vote no...Will a referendum take us out of Europe? A. Don't know, it will depend on negotiations. Will the Tories keep ripping apart the Welfare State? Don't know, depends on the election, and if the Libdems keep teabagging them. What will the interest rates be when you have to cut back on quantitative easing? Don't know etc. Cameron's got every Government department on the the case of undermining Scottish Independence, but won't answer these questions. The Yes spokesmen on the other hand are supposed to be Nostredamus, having a definite prediction for everything from currency, Europe and pensions before negotiations have even started. That really bugs me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 It was mainly based on how Darling always seems quite uncomfortable when you stick him in front of a camera, while Salmond is in his element. I'm not a fan of TV debates anyway to be honest, it makes it too much about personality for me. I don't see what's wrong with having a debate where each person speaks for 20 or 30 minutes then questions to each from the floor, the part where one combatant questions the other is shite, why Salmond agreed to that format after watching Sturgeon getting shut down by Lamont is beyond me, you're just allowing NO to play a 4 6 0 formation against your superior forward play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-only-stat-that-matters/ It is a quote from the ICM before after poll. Slightly worrying for BT if yes is imcreased amongst don't knows after that cluster performance from Salmond and what was probably Darlings best shot (currency) Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I didn't watch the debate but it sounds like Salmond was far and away from his best. Currency has always been the soft underbelly for the Yes campaign and I can't agree with Salmond's position. It's the thing that really frustrates me about the campaign. They should have gone for the independent currency option long ago. Sure BT would have dismissed it and belittled the idea of the Scottish "groat", no doubt that's what the NO lot would have called it with a wee smirk on their faces but it's a far more justifiable position than the one Yes use now, even if it does bring out the worst of the Westminster 'No, you can't!' (said like that South African in Alan Partridge) and 'we'd not longer be friends or cooperate as you'd break up our family of nations' rhetoric. Another point, 'Best of both worlds'? To me it seems that even if it is the case we get the best of WM, we also get it at it's very worst, and we don't even get close the the best of a Parliament made only of elected representatives chosen by the Scottish people as it's very much limited in what it can actually do, which is a shame as I believe a parliament that governs over a smaller amount of people would be more representative and accountable. It's the child at the sweet shop with pocket money parliament, or maybe it's the wife who works FT but the couple only has a joint account and she only get an allowance, I don't know. WM is the adult at John Lewis with a whopping salary and a rather accommodating credit card, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunkmedal Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-only-stat-that-matters/ There's a pretty monumental blunder in that article. If you actually read the table it shows that there were 27 "don't knows" who changed their mind during the debate: 18 of them going to No and 9 of them going to Yes. So it actually shows Darling was far more successful at winning over "don't knows" to the No side. Wings have ignored/overlooked that and quoted figures on those who remained "don't know" after the debate. What it actually shows is that most of those who thought Salmond won still didn't shift their opinion to Yes, whereas most of those who thought Darling won did shift their opinion to No. It basically demonstrates the exact opposite of what they're claiming (Darling won more undecideds over to the No side than Salmond managed for the Yes side) they simply don't realise that because they aren't reading the table properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 There's a pretty monumental blunder in that article. If you actually read the table it shows that there were 27 "don't knows" who changed their mind during the debate: 18 of them going to No and 9 of them going to Yes. So it actually shows Darling was far more successful at winning over "don't knows" to the No side. Wings have ignored/overlooked that and quoted figures on those who remained "don't know" after the debate. What it actually shows is that most of those who thought Salmond won still didn't shift their opinion to Yes, whereas most of those who thought Darling won did shift their opinion to No. It basically demonstrates the exact opposite of what they're claiming (Darling won more undecideds over to the No side than Salmond managed for the Yes side) they simply don't realise that because they aren't reading the table properly. That's pretty much what I was about to post, but couldn't quite formulate it into a readable post! The only reason Salmond won the DK's post-debate is because more Darling-supporting DK's moved to "No" than Salmond-supporting DK's moved to "Yes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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