Youth Systems

[Tam_O_Shanter]

The Ayr United Football Academy has over the years provided many first team members, unfortunately that team is Troon Juniors. It's about time the Kirkland's pumped some money into the youth system which has worked so well for them.

[Cliche Guevara]

I thought there was a policy of not recording u17s(and bellow) results?

As for your cup run this year, congratulations on having a team from the age group bellow defeat you despite having home advantage. It can be said with confidence there is a significant drop in standards between the former sfl u19s and the former spl u20s. Pretty obvious given celtics u17s had and easier time playing against an age group above than their u20s who were playing teams from

No idea what this word-jamboree is all about, but all bar one of our u19s is eligible to play for the team next season. We beat Celtic u19s in the group section and drew with them in ninety minutes of the final of the u19 League Cup. That's an answer to your earlier question.

As for your vertiginous post above I, for one, can't follow a word of it.

[vikingTON]

I dont get why so many people are against have youth teams. As the end of the day these days, the vast majority of players in Scotland have come through a youth system at one of the 42 league clubs so they must be doing something right.

lol wut

What, do you expect them to be picked up working 40 hours a week in a warehouse or something? The general standard of football across the leagues remains poor to put it mildly, so quite why we're supposed to applaud their emergence from a youth setup (and in many cases, represent the dregs of a youth setup, see, oh, every single Morton signing of a Hibs cast-off) is anyone's guess.

Those objections of course are trivial in comparison to the simple and as yet uncontested fact: the issue of efficiency. Celtic and to a lesser extent Dundee United, Hibs, Hearts etc can, under most circumstances, afford to invest the degree of resources, annually, to operate a youth system (and the scouting network that goes along with that) capable of producing talented players. There are no such resources in the lower leagues. Of the three much-vaunted clubs to have done so, Livingston did it off the back of blatant financial cheating for over a decade - unsurprisingly, their vaunted youth setup has been combined with routine bouts of financial instability. Falkirk did so off the back of a dodgy stadium deal with the council and a spell in the SPL - since returning to the lower leagues, both their finances and youth 'conveyor' have floundered. Hamilton did so due to the underwriting of their backer, and were £2 million in debt to MacDonald prior to the McCarthy and McArthur deals. What we have currently are a small list of lower league clubs deluding themselves that they can yield the same returns as a properly-funded setup, without actually funding it themselves. In Morton's case, the tea lady and the Supporters' Trust in general insist that the club can invest literally not a single pound in its youth setup and still reap enough dosh to pay of a £2 million (and rising) debt to the current ownership. That is plainly bollocks.

Given the abject lack of resources in the lower leagues it makes absolutely no sense to divide them between a poor man's youth setup and a crap first team; rather, clubs should be investing in scouting to identify the picks of hundreds of cast-offs from proper setups across Scotland and the UK: Kane Hemmings moving to Cowdenbeath being an excellent example.

[Snakebite]

I think its got to be a combination of the three. Plucking the best young players from lower down the leagues, players cut from bigger clubs AND bringing through your own. I think theres too much of an over reliance to build a largely made up of academy players, its very expensive and smaller clubs are working at a disadvantage because the bigger clubs are signing up the vast majority of the top talent who are likely to make it in the senior game. I think Falkirk are a great example of this. They haven't utilised the lower leagues/juniors etc when building their squad. Unless you are chucking money around to a shedload of experienced players in their prime to complement, you aren't building a league winning when you rely too heavily on your academy.

Of our league winning team last year only Bannigan came through our system. Sinclair, Muirhead, Paton, Erskine, Doolan were all signed from the lower leagues/juniors. Lawless, Balatoni, Welsh, O'Donnell were cut adrift from bigger clubs. We had experienced players like Shuggie Murray, Archibald and Steven Craig. Theres got to be a balance IMO.

[Cliche Guevara]

That's a perfect example right there IMO. Thistle could have done that with no 'youth academy'.

I think too much gets made of it because too much hope or expectation is placed on them.

Fair enough I think all clubs should have youth teams, for boys and girls, from as young an age as possible. That's easy done though. Let them get on with it and enjoy themselves then see what emerges.

We just need to get away from the idea that every club needs a youth set-up and they are responsible for, and can be successful at, producing good players. The talent simply has to be there and it rarely is.

There seems to be a great feeling that clubs are scared to give youngsters a chance in favour of short-term success. That if only you'd invest three years in your u19s they'd eventually get you to the SPL. That somehow they're more commitment or make more effort for the team. It's all bollocks.

[honestly united]

lol wut

What, do you expect them to be picked up working 40 hours a week in a warehouse or something?

My point exactly, if there is no proper youth systems the kids are going to be playing in boys clubs which is just a step up from a kick about on the street with your mates, with no proper coaching. We need to get the kids identified early and coached properly from an early age

The general standard of football across the leagues remains poor to put it mildly, so quite why we're supposed to applaud their emergence from a youth setup (and in many cases, represent the dregs of a youth setup, see, oh, every single Morton signing of a Hibs cast-off) is anyone's guess.

Those objections of course are trivial in comparison to the simple and as yet uncontested fact: the issue of efficiency. Celtic and to a lesser extent Dundee United, Hibs, Hearts etc can, under most circumstances, afford to invest the degree of resources, annually, to operate a youth system (and the scouting network that goes along with that) capable of producing talented players. There are no such resources in the lower leagues. Of the three much-vaunted clubs to have done so, Livingston did it off the back of blatant financial cheating for over a decade - unsurprisingly, their vaunted youth setup has been combined with routine bouts of financial instability. Falkirk did so off the back of a dodgy stadium deal with the council and a spell in the SPL - since returning to the lower leagues, both their finances and youth 'conveyor' have floundered. Hamilton did so due to the underwriting of their backer, and were £2 million in debt to MacDonald prior to the McCarthy and McArthur deals. What we have currently are a small list of lower league clubs deluding themselves that they can yield the same returns as a properly-funded setup, without actually funding it themselves. In Morton's case, the tea lady and the Supporters' Trust in general insist that the club can invest literally not a single pound in its youth setup and still reap enough dosh to pay of a £2 million (and rising) debt to the current ownership. That is plainly bollocks.

Given the abject lack of resources in the lower leagues it makes absolutely no sense to divide them between a poor man's youth setup and a crap first team; rather, clubs should be investing in scouting to identify the picks of hundreds of cast-offs from proper setups across Scotland and the UK: Kane Hemmings moving to Cowdenbeath being an excellent example.

And how much worse would the standard be if there were no youth set ups? Yes the standard of the kids coming through could be a lot better, but in general terms I think we are producing more good young kids (in the last 5 years especially) than we have in a long time. I still think the problems more with the coaching as most of the time the players are just running round little cones rather than practising skills like passing and controling a football or recognising who is on their team before kicking the ball in their general direction. However the standards are definately on the rise at the top end.

In terms of finance and costs that should be done to individual clubs, and you cant blame general poor financial management on the fact they have a youth set up, to be fair the majority are only glorified boys clubs who use the fact they are in a "pro" league as an incentive to get kids to sign up.

Are things any worse now than they were 20 years ago when we had YTS or trainee's at 16 speanding 2 years cleaning boots, or picking rubbish off terracing etc for peanuts, before being released.

And your point on spending all the money on scouting the top end youth set ups for cast offs, why bother with that when surely your manager could go along an watch the games anyway without needing a scout? Or even better if you had your own youth team you could go and play rangers or celtic youths and see who there best players were

[Stevie Aitken's Love Child]

Youth systems are about much more than bringing players through to play in the first team/be sold on. They're about getting local kids involved in training programmes run by the club from a young age, in order to try and build the next generation of fans.

[BRECHIN4791]

Brechin City don t seem to show any interest in youth football at all ! They seem to put all their eggs in the seniors team basket ha ha ! A member of the local Brechin City Youth s Football committee asked chairman Ferguson a couple yrs back "what he was goin to do to bring The Boys Club and Brechin City closer together ? "

He replied " nothing im only interested in Brechin City ! "

At any Boys Clubs end of season prize giving s I ve seen players from other teams handing out the trophies !ie. Charlie King when at Forfar ! and Souter And Gauld of Dun Utd who both played for Brechin City Boys..it's years since Brechin City players attended these functions....

This season Grant Johnston took two 1 hr long training sessions for The Boys Club which I may be wrong but folk were saying Brechin City will receive money from SPFL for supporting youth football in the area, this was just a rumour but it's happenend in the past.....

[parsforlife]

No idea what this word-jamboree is all about, but all bar one of our u19s is eligible to play for the team next season. We beat Celtic u19s in the group section and drew with them in ninety minutes of the final of the u19 League Cup. That's an answer to your earlier question.

As for your vertiginous post above I, for one, can't follow a word of it.

I'm not sure what's difficult to understand. Ayr u19s did not play Celtic u19s, they played celtics u17s.

[D.Armour Appreciation Society]

As for your cup run this year, congratulations on having a team from the age group bellow defeat you despite having home advantage. It can be said with confidence there is a significant drop in standards between the former sfl u19s and the former spl u20s. Pretty obvious given celtics u17s had and easier time playing against an age group above than their u20s who were playing teams from the same age group.

Spoken like a true Celtic fan, the Pars your wee team ?

Ayr United could have played eligible First team squad players, ( which I would have done ) but chose to field those who played their way to the Final.

[D.Armour Appreciation Society]

I'm not sure what's difficult to understand. Ayr u19s did not play Celtic u19s, they played celtics u17s.

Obviously your wee team, hell bent on making a point.

All but 1 or 2 players from the Ayr United team were eligible for U-19s next season.

[callum-ayr]

Spoken like a true Celtic fan, the Pars your wee team ?

Ayr United could have played eligible First team squad players, ( which I would have done ) but chose to field those who played their way to the Final.

Correct, obviously has no idea the majority of our U19s squad are 16/17 year olds.

[Cliche Guevara]

I'm not sure what's difficult to understand. Ayr u19s did not play Celtic u19s, they played celtics u17s.

No they didn't. Case closed.

[DAFC]

The pars youth setup...

Awarded cash for blooding a certain amount of youngsters from local sides.

1. Sign lots of players.

2. Get money.

3. Drop local lads.

4. Sign best rejects from SPL sides.

What players have we sold on since McNamara?

It's a joke of a setup.

[vikingTON]

My point exactly, if there is no proper youth systems the kids are going to be playing in boys clubs which is just a step up from a kick about on the street with your mates, with no proper coaching. We need to get the kids identified early and coached properly from an early age

This does not necessitate senior clubs in the lower leagues wasting their time and resources in doing so.

Are things any worse now than they were 20 years ago when we had YTS or trainee's at 16 speanding 2 years cleaning boots, or picking rubbish off terracing etc for peanuts, before being released.

Probably not. There has, however, been no discernible improvement in the standard of football, nor a raft of small clubs demonstrating the greater utility of a youth development focus over the orthodox mix of adequate scouting and competent club management. Inverness and Ross County have comfortably surpassed any of the youth fluffer setups in that exact period, because they weren't slaves to the usual mix of bluster and bullshit that accompanies any youth system and its usual parade of vaunted coaches, judged only by reputation and never by results.

And your point on spending all the money on scouting the top end youth set ups for cast offs, why bother with that when surely your manager could go along an watch the games anyway without needing a scout? Or even better if you had your own youth team you could go and play rangers or celtic youths and see who there best players were

Erm no, I'd rather have a Morton manager coaching the first-team squad to remove routine bouts of comedy defending and playing like a bunch of drunken clowns, rather than go to a youth game to identify potential targets - who wouldn't, in fact, represent the 'best' of a higher setup. Your bluster also neglects the vast number of players released from setups south of the border.

It is impractical to identify such targets without competent scouts, which have largely been left at the wayside in favour of clubs crossing their fingers and hoping someone will emerge. Which is a laughably inept way to run a football club.

[vikingTON]

Youth systems are about much more than bringing players through to play in the first team/be sold on. They're about getting local kids involved in training programmes run by the club from a young age, in order to try and build the next generation of fans.

As witnessed of course by Hamilton or Livingston's notoriously vast, modern fanbase.

[parsforlife]

Spoken like a true Celtic fan, the Pars your wee team ?

Ayr United could have played eligible First team squad players, ( which I would have done ) but chose to field those who played their way to the Final.

Bitch please, I wouldn't piss on Celtic if they were on fire.

My point is Ayr are competing at a significantly lower level than we are, but then one glance at the teams playing in the u20s league compared to the u19s league proves that with ease. I really don't understand how it's difficult to comprehend.

No they didn't. Case closed.

Oh yes they did. .http://www.celticfc.net/news/5907 case closed.

The pars youth setup...

Awarded cash for blooding a certain amount of youngsters from local sides.

1. Sign lots of players.

2. Get money.

3. Drop local lads.

4. Sign best rejects from SPL sides.

What players have we sold on since McNamara?

It's a joke of a setup.

I love how this gets you raging as if we would deliberately drop local players even if they were better than guys from further afield. You sound like a bitter boys club coach who's lost his best players.

I'm not sure who would give us cash depending on where a player is from btw, the majority of our external funding is from the sfa and they couldn't give a f**k where a player is from.

[Larbert_Par]

Dunfermline's youth set-up was neglected for many, many years - particularly during the early 2000s during the Calderwood years of reckless spending by the board. There were two or three who came through into the team, but they ended up heading down the leagues after the Pars. Certainly no players were brought through and sold on for big money.

Given the financial problems, the youth side has come to more prominence but the seeds were sown under a few years back when Stephen Wright was brought in. He really has revamped the youth set-up at EEP, to the point where we've got much larger numbers of kids involved in various age groups and in community programmes. Bringing players into the first team doesn't happen overnight, but there are certainly promising signs for us currently, with the likes of Ryan Williamson breaking through and doing really well at only 17/18. Tellingly, we've had clubs from the Scottish Premiership, and Premiership / Championship clubs in England, both bid for and take some of our players at under-14/15 level on trial.

The club were looking to build on their 3/4 star rating and go for elite status, but that's a no-go given our current league position. The cost of putting together and running an elite academy is substantial on year by year basis and the club simply can't do it in League One - it'd be unlikely even in the Championship. Things are heading in the right direction (consistently invited to join the SPFL under-20s league, one of only three non-Premiership clubs and Rangers to be included, the others being Hamilton and Falkirk) and reaching the Youth Cup final and quarter final in successive seasons. Not bad considering the turmoil the club has faced off the park.

From this season, we're entering a Fife regional academy set-up along with the other three Kingdom clubs, similar to that in Forth Valley between Falkirk and Stenhousemuir. Will be interesting to see how it works out but the theory is that the younger players will get the opportunity to play against the elite clubs, the cost to DAFC and the others will be much less as there will be SFA funding (they're pushing for these academies - I've heard there's a possibility for an Ayrshire one between Ayr and Killie) and the players, although representing the academy, would still be registered with each individual club.

The Pars set-up is by no means the best, but it is heading in the right direction and is vastly improved from the position it was in even 5 years ago.

[parsforlife]

Good summery larbert, credit also needs to go to Craig mcwhirter who has been a major part of the turnaround along with wright.

[Larbert_Par]

Completely agree and very amiss of me to not mention Craig McWhirter. A key figure indeed.