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Heart of Midlothian 2014-


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Guest JTS98
On 20/05/2020 at 02:55, topcat(The most tip top) said:

In reminding everybody of today’s anniversary I may be accused of reaching for a comfort blanket.

 

But if you’ve got a comfort blanket as cosy as this it’s surely understandable

 

IMG_1075.jpg.da821d6380346e09b1dbb98721ec1f4d.jpg

Life doesn't give you too many days like that. I can still remember every step of the day like it was yesterday. It was absolutely perfect from my 5am wake-up right through to eventually falling into my bed well into daylight on the Sunday.

Just beautiful.

I like the irony of Hibs fans referring to it as the comfort blanket, when the act of referring to it in that way is indeed their comfort blanket way of dealing with what simply must have been one of the most miserable days of their lives.

It couldn't have gone any better.

Edited by JTS98
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Guest JTS98

I see that contributions to FoH continue to grow in the light of recent events.

It's a remarkable movement and incredible what has been done.

Also telling that FoH has continued to flourish through periods of success, periods when people might have thought the job was done, periods of utter apathy, and now during a period of struggle.

Looks like it's here to stay.

Edited by JTS98
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12 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Life doesn't give you too many days like that. I can still remember every step of the day like it was yesterday. It was absolutely perfect from my 5am wake-up right through to eventually falling into my bed well into daylight on the Sunday.

Just beautiful.

I like the irony of Hibs fans referring to it as the comfort blanket, when the act of referring to it in that way is indeed their comfort blanket way of dealing with what simply have been one of the most miserable days of their lives.

It couldn't have gone any better.

I think they just forget whose thread this is.

I presume they're wallowing in similar nostalgia on the anniversary of the 2016 cup final.

The decent ones will be posting fond memories on the Hibs thread, maybe shedding a brief tear for relatives that never lived to see it

The arseholes will instead be bamming up  the **** on the Rangers thread

 

 

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16 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I see that contributions to FoH continue to grow in the light of recent events.

It's a remarkable movement and incredible what has been done.

Also telling that FoH has continued to flourish through periods of success, periods when people might have thought the job was done, periods of utter apathy, and now during a period of struggle.

Looks like it's here to stay.

Genuine question, is FoH being here to stay a good thing?

Credit where it's due for Hearts fans for piling money into the club to keep it afloat. More broadly, we seem to be in the era of share schemes, fan contribution models etc with it becoming more common and even expected, that fans are handing over extra money to their clubs on top of extortionate ticket pricing. I don't really understand how that has come to be seen as a positive.

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Guest JTS98
2 minutes ago, Alan Stubbs said:

Genuine question, is FoH being here to stay a good thing?

Credit where it's due for Hearts fans for piling money into the club to keep it afloat. More broadly, we seem to be in the era of share schemes, fan contribution models etc with it becoming more common and even expected, that fans are handing over extra money to their clubs on top of extortionate ticket pricing. I don't really understand how that has come to be seen as a positive.

I think it's certainly a positive.

It adds accountability, as fans can reasonably question what is being done with what is quite literally their money. It gives fans an added sense of loyalty and buy-in, which is good for the club. It protects the club from short-term form slumps where attendances might dip a bit. It also gives fans who live abroad or are otherwise unable to attend a meaningful way to contribute to the club.

I don't know a Hearts fan abroad who isn't an FoH contributor. That's an avenue to contribute that fans didn't have before.

Nobody is holding a gun to anybody's head. Everybody has their eyes open. The minimum contribution is a tenner a month. In the last week I believe we've added 150 or so people. That's a minimum of an extra 1500 quid a month into the club costing those at the minimum end less than a few pints and a bag of chips. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Long-term it'll be of huge value to the club and it's priced at a level that doesn't put anybody under any strain. How many people spend more than a tenner a week on coffee, never mind a month?

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8 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I think it's certainly a positive.

It adds accountability, as fans can reasonably question what is being done with what is quite literally their money. It gives fans an added sense of loyalty and buy-in, which is good for the club. It protects the club from short-term form slumps where attendances might dip a bit. It also gives fans who live abroad or are otherwise unable to attend a meaningful way to contribute to the club.

I don't know a Hearts fan abroad who isn't an FoH contributor. That's an avenue to contribute that fans didn't have before.

Nobody is holding a gun to anybody's head. Everybody has their eyes open. The minimum contribution is a tenner a month. In the last week I believe we've added 150 or so people. That's a minimum of an extra 1500 quid a month into the club costing those at the minimum end less than a few pints and a bag of chips. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Long-term it'll be of huge value to the club and it's priced at a level that doesn't put anybody under any strain. How many people spend more than a tenner a week on coffee, never mind a month?

Agree with almost everything you've said there, and I wish (genuinely, this isn't a dig) that it didn't take clubs being in dire straits for these things to start in a meaningful way. The bit I've bolded hasn't quite worked out though, has it? A lot of the decision making at Hearts has been strongly criticised by the fans, and there hasn't been, that I've seen, a whole lot of change brought about as a consequence. Happy to be corrected. 

Edited by Genuine Hibs Fan
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22 minutes ago, Alan Stubbs said:

Genuine question, is FoH being here to stay a good thing?

Credit where it's due for Hearts fans for piling money into the club to keep it afloat. More broadly, we seem to be in the era of share schemes, fan contribution models etc with it becoming more common and even expected, that fans are handing over extra money to their clubs on top of extortionate ticket pricing. I don't really understand how that has come to be seen as a positive.

Of course, it's a good thing. But it needs good football/business management not to waste that extra money on bloated squads and 4 year contracts for players from down south they will never have gone to watch anytime recently.

Edited by Pet Jeden
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Guest JTS98
4 minutes ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

Agree with almost everything you've said there, and I wish (genuinely, this isn't a dig) that it didn't take clubs being in dire straits for these things to start in a meaningful way. The bit I've bolded hasn't quite worked out though, has it? A lot of the decision making at Hearts has been strongly criticised by the fans, and there hasn't been, that I've seen, a whole lot of change brought about as a consequence. Happy to be corrected. 

I don't think anybody is saying it guarantees good decisions. Ultimately, someone always has to be making the final call at a club, and sometimes they'll get it wrong. But I think the fans having regular financial input into the club increases scrutiny and adds another level of responsibility on those making decisions to explain themselves.

A rich owner of a club can make decisions and say 'It's my money, it's my club, piss off'. You can't do that with fans financing things.

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36 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

costing those at the minimum end less than a few pints and a bag of chips.

As I'm living in the South of England, that's "One and half pints and a bag of crisps" ;)

I'm a Motherwell fan who rarely gets to any games, so I'm very happy to have a way of contributing to the club from afar.  I used to do it just by buying things I didn't need from the on-line shop... a direct method is good to have.  

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Genuine question, is FoH being here to stay a good thing?
Credit where it's due for Hearts fans for piling money into the club to keep it afloat. More broadly, we seem to be in the era of share schemes, fan contribution models etc with it becoming more common and even expected, that fans are handing over extra money to their clubs on top of extortionate ticket pricing. I don't really understand how that has come to be seen as a positive.

Others have covered why they think it’s a good thing and I’m inclined to agree. I also think what’s the alternative. Budge stumped up the money when needed and unless we have someone else who’s going to do the same and buy the club to look after as a genuine fan FoH seems the best option.
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59 minutes ago, Alan Stubbs said:

Genuine question, is FoH being here to stay a good thing?

Credit where it's due for Hearts fans for piling money into the club to keep it afloat. More broadly, we seem to be in the era of share schemes, fan contribution models etc with it becoming more common and even expected, that fans are handing over extra money to their clubs on top of extortionate ticket pricing. I don't really understand how that has come to be seen as a positive.

They seem to fall into two types. 

Ones that lead to fan ownership or at least representation like the FoH, Well Society etc..

And ones that don't like Aberdeen's DNA or the floations of "non voting" shares that both Hearts and Hibs have done in the past.

I don't think anybody can make a case for the latter being a positive but supporter ownership is surely preferable to the previous standard model of fooball club ownership which relied on a succession of rich weirdos most of which weren't Jack Walker

 

 

 

 

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Fair point about fans abroad/not able to go. To be more clear than I was before, having different ways for fans to contribute is a positive but I just get the impression that we're moving towards a situation where fans having a season ticket and some direct debit coming out is the standard expectation. I appreciate that nobody is saying that here but it's just something I've thought for a while. 

I don't really agree with the 'its only 2 cups of coffee' argument, unless you're talking about fans who can't go or for a particularly fundraising effort. I don't know what Hearts' prices are but if e.g. Hibs raised their season tickets from £420 to £540, nobody would say, 'ah well, only a tenner a month'. Separating it out into a product and a membership scheme gives the impression of added accountability* but really it boils down to paying a huge whack of money; which in this case, seems to have led to more nonchalant spending. 

17 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

They seem to fall into two types. 

Ones that lead to fan ownership or at least representation like the FoH, Well Society etc..

And ones that don't like Aberdeen's DNA or the floations of "non voting" shares that both Hearts and Hibs have done in the past.

I don't think anybody can make a case for the latter being a positive but supporter ownership is surely preferable to the previous standard model of fooball club ownership which relied on a succession of rich weirdos most of which weren't Jack Walker

*Unless the money is actually buying a club. I can't criticise FoH in its original form but if I'm at all right about these schemes becoming standard practice, I wish we'd all question it at this stage rather than pay more for probably the same shite.

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1 hour ago, Alan Stubbs said:

Fair point about fans abroad/not able to go. To be more clear than I was before, having different ways for fans to contribute is a positive but I just get the impression that we're moving towards a situation where fans having a season ticket and some direct debit coming out is the standard expectation. I appreciate that nobody is saying that here but it's just something I've thought for a while. 

I don't really agree with the 'its only 2 cups of coffee' argument, unless you're talking about fans who can't go or for a particularly fundraising effort. I don't know what Hearts' prices are but if e.g. Hibs raised their season tickets from £420 to £540, nobody would say, 'ah well, only a tenner a month'. Separating it out into a product and a membership scheme gives the impression of added accountability* but really it boils down to paying a huge whack of money; which in this case, seems to have led to more nonchalant spending. 

*Unless the money is actually buying a club. I can't criticise FoH in its original form but if I'm at all right about these schemes becoming standard practice, I wish we'd all question it at this stage rather than pay more for probably the same shite.

 

Once it's cleared the cost of the CVA and we've helped build the new stand and cushioned the impact of Coronavirus. The FoH will be principally about governance as opposed to fund raising

Which does raise the question of what the FoH money will actually be for

Supporters (as foundation members) could subsidise supporters  (as ticket buyers) but that doesn't seem particularly useful.

We could build up an "emergency fund" to make the future more secure than the past looked but that doesn't seem much fun and eventually the fund would be big enough and you'd need a new project.

We could blow it on a marquee signing every season but he will probably get injured 

But it's probably just going to get absorbed into normal cashflow

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17 hours ago, Alan Stubbs said:

Fair point about fans abroad/not able to go. To be more clear than I was before, having different ways for fans to contribute is a positive but I just get the impression that we're moving towards a situation where fans having a season ticket and some direct debit coming out is the standard expectation. I appreciate that nobody is saying that here but it's just something I've thought for a while. 

I don't really agree with the 'its only 2 cups of coffee' argument, unless you're talking about fans who can't go or for a particularly fundraising effort. I don't know what Hearts' prices are but if e.g. Hibs raised their season tickets from £420 to £540, nobody would say, 'ah well, only a tenner a month'. Separating it out into a product and a membership scheme gives the impression of added accountability* but really it boils down to paying a huge whack of money; which in this case, seems to have led to more nonchalant spending. 

*Unless the money is actually buying a club. I can't criticise FoH in its original form but if I'm at all right about these schemes becoming standard practice, I wish we'd all question it at this stage rather than pay more for probably the same shite.

Good points.

I don't know a great deal about the FOH scheme, and happy to be corrected here, but I can understand it's merit for dragging the club out of a serious financial situation, or to fund a new stand if there were safety issues or if that meant the club could massively increase its income.

However, should fans have to pay every month to subsidise the running of the club if they already buy season tickets, merchandise etc longer term?  If this income is essential then the club needs to lower its outgoings to be on a sound financial footing surely.  

Clubs know football fans are completely blinkered when it comes to their team, and it's quite easy to market it in a way to 'exploit' them and encourage them to contribute  even more money.

As you say, if a few clubs do it then the worry is all our clubs feel they have to copy it to keep up, so more money being spent on standing still. It's not as if it's massively going to increase the quality we're watching on the park.

 

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21 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

Good points.

I don't know a great deal about the FOH scheme, and happy to be corrected here, but I can understand it's merit for dragging the club out of a serious financial situation, or to fund a new stand if there were safety issues or if that meant the club could massively increase its income.

However, should fans have to pay every month to subsidise the running of the club if they already buy season tickets, merchandise etc longer term?  If this income is essential then the club needs to lower its outgoings to be on a sound financial footing surely.  

Clubs know football fans are completely blinkered when it comes to their team, and it's quite easy to market it in a way to 'exploit' them and encourage them to contribute  even more money.

As you say, if a few clubs do it then the worry is all our clubs feel they have to copy it to keep up, so more money being spent on standing still. It's not as if it's massively going to increase the quality we're watching on the park.

 

Relying on grants of phree munny from one rich individual is already part of Hearts operational planning. Getting direct debits from a couple of thousand fans is surely more reliable, in that it's less likely for the money to suddenly dry up on the whim of one person.

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33 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

However, should fans have to pay every month to subsidise the running of the club if they already buy season tickets, merchandise etc longer term?  If this income is essential then the club needs to lower its outgoings to be on a sound financial footing surely.  

This wasnt the original aim of the FoH.

Although they technically existed beforehand, FoH came to the fore as a vehicle to buy Hearts from administration because they were in the financial shite.

Budge got on board because they needed a lump sum to make the purchase in the first place, it was proposed that her £2.5m would be repaid later. Subsequently it was agreed that the monthly income from FoH would be helpful (in the Championship) if it was directed to running costs, and Hearts came out of the Championship in pretty decent financial shape as a result.

The precedent was set at that point and the bit in bold above became standard procedure.

Hearts also got a wedge of cash from anonymous benefactors which helped prop up a large wage bill and allowed them to embark on the (currently unfinished) new stand.

The stand went massively over budget, and FoH agreed to fund a %age of the new stand and defer the purchase of the club from Budge (but they are still on track to do this).

Their model was never designed to act in this way, but without it they would still have the old stand and a significantly reduced player budget.

Despite Budges mewling about the financial implications of the drop, Hearts will have a budget that dwarfs the rest of the Championship.

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I've got an idea which would be novel to hearts and safe guard their future.Live withen their means?

Simply dont go above the budget that you've taken in from supporters?

This comes in from season tickets and merchandise mainly but their are other monies coming in.

Benny Factor doesnt count, thats cheating.

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28 minutes ago, Green Day said:

This wasnt the original aim of the FoH.

Although they technically existed beforehand, FoH came to the fore as a vehicle to buy Hearts from administration because they were in the financial shite.

Budge got on board because they needed a lump sum to make the purchase in the first place, it was proposed that her £2.5m would be repaid later. Subsequently it was agreed that the monthly income from FoH would be helpful (in the Championship) if it was directed to running costs, and Hearts came out of the Championship in pretty decent financial shape as a result.

The precedent was set at that point and the bit in bold above became standard procedure.

Hearts also got a wedge of cash from anonymous benefactors which helped prop up a large wage bill and allowed them to embark on the (currently unfinished) new stand.

The stand went massively over budget, and FoH agreed to fund a %age of the new stand and defer the purchase of the club from Budge (but they are still on track to do this).

Their model was never designed to act in this way, but without it they would still have the old stand and a significantly reduced player budget.

Despite Budges mewling about the financial implications of the drop, Hearts will have a budget that dwarfs the rest of the Championship.

Oh well. That’s okay then. No idea why Hearts (and Partick) are pissed off at being chucked out with 8 games to go.

Interesting to just hear a sports litigation lawyer on radio say relegated clubs (from English Div 2) do have a claim against the league

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